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POCO gagging

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#41 - 2013-12-02 14:45:30 UTC
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:

I didn't think it would bother me but ... it sticks in my craw that 0-sec corps have taken over h-sec POCOs. I haven't done any PI since Rubicon.


If they're in hisec, shooting/defending POCOs, then are they really a nullsec corp? You make it sound like its some great injustice that organized people in hisec are taking over POCOs.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#42 - 2013-12-02 14:56:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I'm about as little-guy as it gets when it comes to my industrial alts. I managed to secure my entire PI planet chain with my own POCOs. By myself.

POCOs are about the easiest struct to bash. Grab your alts, toss them in Oracles, and go sit for a few hours. Think of it like this...it's just like asteroid mining. Set your target then go alt-tab into netflix.


No big deal. Still PLENTY of Interbus customs offices out there, off the beaten path. Find what you need, pop the NPC office, build you own. Escape from the oppression of those evil people offering lower tax rates than the NPC defaults!


Nonsense, EVE Online is not about self reliance or taking the initiative or being responsible for your own enjoyment so you are obviously playing the game wrong. It's about CCP giving you things because you demand it in the General Discussion forum (rather than take 10 seconds to generate an original thought) .....like the op did. Didn't you read the EULA?

/sarcasm Cool

was there another "clarification"?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#43 - 2013-12-02 14:58:46 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:

I didn't think it would bother me but ... it sticks in my craw that 0-sec corps have taken over h-sec POCOs. I haven't done any PI since Rubicon.

If they're in hisec, shooting/defending POCOs, then are they really a nullsec corp? You make it sound like its some great injustice that organized people in hisec are taking over POCOs.

Highsecpocoswarm Federation

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-12-02 15:16:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:

I didn't think it would bother me but ... it sticks in my craw that 0-sec corps have taken over h-sec POCOs. I haven't done any PI since Rubicon.

If they're in hisec, shooting/defending POCOs, then are they really a nullsec corp? You make it sound like its some great injustice that organized people in hisec are taking over POCOs.

Highsecpocoswarm Federation


I just resubbed (prob. won't last for long.) Let me get this straight. CCP and the goonies aren't working hand in glove?

I remember a post by a nul sec CEO @ 3 yrs ago "Now that we have sovereignty what else is there left to do?"

Apparently the answer by CCP to small groups is to go ...........

Ever look at players online stats......

Ever look at new player turnover.....

Perhaps nul sec as now balanced does not work.....

Perhaps the answer to nul sec should start with reorganizing nul sec.....

Problems in nul sec should be solved in nul sec.....
Dextrome Thorphan
#45 - 2013-12-02 15:43:55 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
Perhaps the answer to nul sec should start with reorganizing nul sec.....

Problems in nul sec should be solved in nul sec.....


I really don't think POCOs were an attempt to "fix nul sec" P
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#46 - 2013-12-02 16:11:59 UTC
There's some design issue at how POCOs are meant to be fought after. It's about targets fragmentation and too low risk vs reward.

Practical example:

I found 10 of my planets got 26%+ taxes.

Half of those are owned by low sec corps.


Despite some exceptions (i.e. RvB) The high sec POCO typical owner is the casual player or very small corp, the others use low sec / null sec installations.

This casual player / small corp is meant to:

1) Wardec 8 different corps. Not going to happen, the last time I could do that was because I was in a 200 men strong PvP corp.

2) Rip his stuff off, lose ISK and current production and move to another planet. But nothing grants that planet won't get conquered by an hostile other corp any time, even tomorrow.

3) Pay mercs to do the job. At first this sounds sweet (MOAR CONTENT!) but then:

- Most merc corps either operate only in hi sec or are based in low sec and have sec status issues at taking work in hi sec as well.

- The reward is just not here to justify the :effort:
From my experience, mercs tend to hate structures bashing and demand proper payment if they really have to spend their time doing that. However hi sec PI pays out so little that spending 500M - 1B is completely illogical. It's going to take 1 year to make up for this price and in 1 year you can stay sure that POCO will be captured again.


The logic conclusion would be: "stop doing PI in hi sec" (or move far away = travel costs kill all profit) but then if that was the design, why implement PI in hi sec to begin with?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#47 - 2013-12-02 16:21:27 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
I too find it appaling that these null sec bullies have come to high sec to lower our taxes.......





to lower our taxes.........



The player corps place their tax on top of the npc tax. Even if the player corp was to lower their tax to 0, you would still be charged the npc tax. So I do not think its accurate to say that the Null corps are lowering empire poco taxes. On the other hand - the OP doesnt know what he is talking about - i have seen many folk including very small corps - think one guy with several alts set up their own poco empires. So its also not accurate to say that POCOs are now just for the big guys.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Rekon X
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-12-02 16:28:21 UTC
Stahlregen wrote:
It's literally threads like these that I use to justify maintaining my sub. Thankyou indignant publord OP, I truly do appreciate what you do for us.


Stupid is.......

definition of goon - "a stupid person"

Caps lock is the biggest sign.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Professor Clio
Apocalypse Lancers
#49 - 2013-12-02 16:56:22 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
There's some design issue at how POCOs are meant to be fought after. It's about targets fragmentation and too low risk vs reward.

Practical example:

I found 10 of my planets got 26%+ taxes.

Half of those are owned by low sec corps.


Despite some exceptions (i.e. RvB) The high sec POCO typical owner is the casual player or very small corp, the others use low sec / null sec installations.

This casual player / small corp is meant to:

1) Wardec 8 different corps. Not going to happen, the last time I could do that was because I was in a 200 men strong PvP corp.

2) Rip his stuff off, lose ISK and current production and move to another planet. But nothing grants that planet won't get conquered by an hostile other corp any time, even tomorrow.

3) Pay mercs to do the job. At first this sounds sweet (MOAR CONTENT!) but then:

- Most merc corps either operate only in hi sec or are based in low sec and have sec status issues at taking work in hi sec as well.

- The reward is just not here to justify the :effort:
From my experience, mercs tend to hate structures bashing and demand proper payment if they really have to spend their time doing that. However hi sec PI pays out so little that spending 500M - 1B is completely illogical. It's going to take 1 year to make up for this price and in 1 year you can stay sure that POCO will be captured again.


The logic conclusion would be: "stop doing PI in hi sec" (or move far away = travel costs kill all profit) but then if that was the design, why implement PI in hi sec to begin with?


Moving your production to an RvB owned planet solves all those issues. We have the means to defend those POCOs, enough of them for you to find the mix of planets you need (over 200 and counting), all within a few jumps of Jita and the business sense to know that it's in our best interest to keep the tax low so as to attract/keep our clients.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#50 - 2013-12-02 20:19:33 UTC
Professor Clio wrote:
[
Moving your production to an RvB owned planet solves all those issues. We have the means to defend those POCOs, enough of them for you to find the mix of planets you need (over 200 and counting), all within a few jumps of Jita and the business sense to know that it's in our best interest to keep the tax low so as to attract/keep our clients.


First of all, I want to extend RvB my most sincere congratulations because imo your organization is to EvE what sliced bread is to inventions. Wish RvB existed when I had time to PvP! P


Second: aren't / weren't you based on Dodixie? Because the planets are around there.


EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Del DelVechio
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#51 - 2013-12-02 20:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Del DelVechio
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
In my opinion this whole high sec POCO thing just serves to illustrate how utterly awful the current war dec mechanics are. Want to take over some planets from a massive corp that has hundreds of POCOs in high sec? Yeah have fun paying half a bil just to try.


This ignores the fact that multiple people have busted their asses for years to build these "massive corps". Get off your ass, stop whining on the forums, and make one yourself. Come and take the POCOs.

Del

Its probably easier to whine on the forums....
Baphommet
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-12-02 20:49:23 UTC
Stahlregen wrote:
It's literally threads like these that I use to justify maintaining my sub. Thankyou indignant publord OP, I truly do appreciate what you do for us.



The videos you made are what convinced me to try out this game three years ago.

Thank you.

.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-12-02 21:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Wait, is the OP seriously proposing that people accessing POCOs should get a suspect flag so that the POCO owners have to defend them?


Suspect flags don't work that way...


e: And as far as defending the POCOs themselves go, we've had a rather persistent corp who has had us wardecced since Rubicon landed trying to take them from us. We're definitely defending them. P

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-12-02 21:59:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Professor Clio wrote:
0.0 is full of alts and nullbears who basically ignore you unless you bother them, don't you know that? Lol


fixed this for you

Pirate

edit: but yeah, i basically agree that it's pointless to do PI in highsec. why would you even bother?


From my recent forays into Null, I have found just as many carebear station campers out there as in hi-sec. Only difference is that they bothered to network long enough to be blue. Other than that, you find patrols, campers, scouts, and us wild and crazy miners scrapping ice and rocks under threat of a nearly instant and messy death. I want a T2 Venture dammit, one with guns Big smile!!!

But to answer your question, I do a lot of final assembly in hi-sec. I take less of a hit bringing up processed materials from null if I lose them. People scanning me are more likely to go after Broadcast Nodes than the component parts. I also enjoy singing my carebear theme songs while we run the manufacturing plant. Big smile

Some folks actually set decent tax rates as well.

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Oxylan
Blood Fanatics
#55 - 2013-12-02 22:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxylan
In my opinion people who do PI waste own time (if people do this just because they love to feel planet interaction it self is ok) but while we talk about isk-hour this is horrible espetialy in empire, personaly i prefer to kill one big red rat that give me pure 1,2mil isk bounty in few scecond instead of travel betwen poco waypoints to colect some materials that give low profit and make me trired (empire)

If it bleed we can kill it.
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-12-02 22:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zheng'Yi Sao
I don't mind in the slightest paying taxes to large corporations. I know that they have the ability to defend their station. I am not going to invest the ISK in a 26 unit, stage four command center if I have no idea who will be orbiting above my head the next day. I detonated one already because I refused to pay 20% tax. The new system encourages competition and initiative. If a corp wishes to go into the tax base buisness, offering a desirable location and rate, I will move my buisness there. Things like that happen in the real world.

PI is still useful to the little guy, even if it means something as simple as generating your own fuel blocks. Look around at what PI materials are used for. There are many opportunities to sell or use them. I don't look at them as an ISK generator, I look at them as a controlable part of my supply chain. Competitive tax rates in Hi-Sec reduce my costs and my risk. Sure, lots of people like to fly around New Eden shooting stuff, decrying industry as boring or wasteful. Everyone is entitled to their style of play, even miner bumpers. Industrialists make everyone else's EVE happen. Simple enough, that is why I enjoy it. Just like when I was in the infantry, for every soldier on the ground there are ten or more people keeping him/her out there. In EVE, that supply chain is me.

Come and mess with our stuff, then we play soldier for a while... Cool

That is, if we are bored. Much easier to outsource killing to a proper Mercenary Corp. One, they are better. Two, they buy my stuff.

Economics. Love it!!!

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#57 - 2013-12-02 23:03:11 UTC
CCP went half baked, they should allow you to shoot any POCO and be given a suspect tag, however if you war dec then you don't get a suspect tag, then the stupid 500m to war dec Goons is not required. CCP this current POCO setup is truly idiotic...

Now you hisec PI people, here is what you do, when some idiot comes in and increases your taxes, suggest to them that this is not a good idea, as you will no longer use said planet, but now comes the fun part, as you know resources on these planets deplete rather quickly, so keep your planet working but go and deplete the planet resources and waste what you extract. The objective is to deplete the planet to such a degree that people don't bother using it, simple as, don't get mad, get even!

There are always ways to resist...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-12-02 23:11:42 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
In my opinion this whole high sec POCO thing just serves to illustrate how utterly awful the current war dec mechanics are. Want to take over some planets from a massive corp that has hundreds of POCOs in high sec? Yeah have fun paying half a bil just to try.


At least you know they won't just drop corp like most hisec pilots do when their corp is deced.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-12-02 23:36:43 UTC
Is there a list somewhere that shows what organisations own a large amount of High Sec POCOs?

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#60 - 2013-12-02 23:46:02 UTC
Oxylan wrote:
In my opinion people who do PI waste own time


POS fuel. Never a waste of time, especially since when it's set up that's it, you just have to go click every few days and collect your materials to make the fuel blocks. This allows me to run several towers without impacting my wallet at all (I also mine the ice). While no it's not "free" (opportunity cost), it doesn't cost me any iskies either.