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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2013-12-03 21:47:26 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It would also provide a world of hurt for any players without any established POS structures. For those in larger groups with some level of industrial focus this wouldn't be an issue, but for those dabbling casually, part of groups with no real industry focus, or newer players just dabbling into industry, a reduction of facilities to the degree that would make the difference you intend would be prohibitive if not crippling for some effected.

I not sure the facility count is the core of the issue beyond being able to match facility counts across security bands, overly bountiful outliers aside, but rather the cost and efficiency of the facilities.


I've already covered that when I proposed the idea earlier in the thread it accounts for smaller groups. I agree that cost and efficiency is a problem as well as accessibility, we just haven't got past the point of accessibility yet because it has to be continually rehashed for highsec-npc-alt-n+1.

I've only seen 2 claims from you regarding this:
- NPC corp characters should be totally removed from all industrial aspects
- Access to NPC asses should be mechanically prohibitive on top of availability being significantly reduced

That doesn't really address the concern I stated, but rather states that you think the consequences are beneficial. As this is first and foremost a game, while balance is needed, unnecessary complication and artificial barriers to the most basic levels of participation should probably be avoided. Your suggestion on the other hand just creates more of them.

While some of the issues you have are very relevant, with your positions coming across as they do I don't think you'll be too successful at convincing anyone not already on board with your ideas of their merit.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#482 - 2013-12-03 21:49:36 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


For me to get stuff from jita.

Step 1 buy with jita alt.
Step 2 contract to JF service.
Step 3 contract from alt to me when the JF drops it off next door.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#483 - 2013-12-03 21:53:54 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Yeah since I've left null has gotten massive buffs that didn't exist when I was player...

What took 10 alts and 3 NPC stations back then would take 5 alts and one fully upgraded outpost today...

The last sentence has been true for at least 6 months and is something you refuse to acknowledge.

The fact of the matter is that huge alliances have existed since before you, and before BoB.

If there's so much junk space out there, then no one should be willing to fight and hold it... thus leaving the door open for small groups like I'm suggesting.

If null is so garbage compared to empire then why is your alliance so big and holds so many regions eh? If things were as out of balance as you say they were, then you wouldn't exist in the form you do today.



Thank you for highlighting your lack of coherence and understanding.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2013-12-03 21:58:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I've only seen 2 claims from you regarding this:
- NPC corp characters should be totally removed from all industrial aspects
- Access to NPC asses should be mechanically prohibitive on top of availability being significantly reduced

That doesn't really address the concern I stated, but rather states that you think the consequences are beneficial. As this is first and foremost a game, while balance is needed, unnecessary complication and artificial barriers to the most basic levels of participation should probably be avoided. Your suggestion on the other hand just creates more of them.

While some of the issues you have are very relevant, with your positions coming across as they do I don't think you'll be too successful at convincing anyone not already on board with your ideas of their merit.


The other part of that is that people could get access to NPC assets by having an office in that station. You are correct in that I think NPC corp members should get the bad part of the changes. As far as convincing people goes highsec-alt-number-n+1 can't be convinced and are only here to

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NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#485 - 2013-12-03 22:02:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?


I remember our first full time move into null. We only had a single carrier for logistics. We could manage our small gang losses with it. We finally pissed off AAA enough that they brought down a 30 man tempest fleet and showed us the glory of long range battleship combat.

Needing to replace our battleships (with a new view on battleship fights) we had corp mining operations once a week. Something that no one could imagine these days. We had a mining HAC and Command Ship fleet in a belt every thursday (as most of us couldn't fly barges). I mined in a Sleipner.

About a month later we found an industry corp that wanted to move to NPC null and we brought them down to Stain with us. They made a great deal of money supplying us.

Before jump bridges, jump freighters, and high-sec incursions eve was a much more interesting place!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#486 - 2013-12-03 22:04:04 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.


I could personally take every spawning signature in a whole constellation if I had a mind to. Even in gurista space which is about the fastest turnover, and hence fastest chance of more spawning up.

My entire constellation has no systems above -0.2. That means no respawning havens or sanctums, and at best, if everyone sticks around and "farms" each systems daily to hold military 5, 4 hubs per system, of which only 1 is a forsaken. That forsaken will be down for 5 minutes after each time it is done too. So that means my entire constellation can support about 7 accounts at any one time ratting or plexing above 60m/hr -> and that is _after_ someone flies a frieghter to those systems at least twice each.

Guess what, systems like mine, and constellations like mine, are pretty damn common.

Systems that are -1.0 to -0.8 are actually far rarer, and some of them are NPC too and can't be upgraded. There are a couple of those in the area of Vale that is PBLRD space.

The actual shittyness of fly over territory is why there are half a dozen military 5 rat holes in good trusec in an alliances territory and NONE of the other systems are farmed or upgraded - because there is just no point. Null population reflects the way the truesec is distributed and the way that the dominion arrays and anomolies perform in different truesec.

oh and dare I mention that basic overseer faction rats, almost never pop in bad truesec systems - even low pops better.

That's a separate issue and if you look earlier before a couple of Goonies started trying to scream people doing with lalalala 'Highsec Tantrum' spam, most of us are in favour of this sort of thing being fixed so that systems can support larger numbers of players. I'm not even against missions (in all space) becoming anoms/sigs that contain multiple objectives inside so that multiple people can work together and get paid out for each objective they complete. (Means some people might miss out on any objective, but multiple objectives allow for at least a partial payout on the site vs all/nothing approach, which makes for a better experience in general). Which would then mean high sec agents couldn't support infinite numbers of pilots also.

As for Malacanis. Good question. Lets remove jump freighters as an answer. Now that Null Industry potential is strong enough to provide for local alliances. And Null Sec players can move all their industry/mining alts out of high sec into Null to use those slots. That sounds like a far better solution than trying to nerf high security industry into the ground. (Along with everything else at the same time)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#487 - 2013-12-03 22:10:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?




So I was wondering about that. If nullsec were to have an easier time at production slots, would this mean more stuff made in nullsec and then transported to Jita for sale instead of more materials transported to the Forge region to be made, then sold in Jita?

Is the entire point of production to sell stuff for profit(?) or to support a direct war/infrastructure effort or both? Was it intended either way originally? If highsec were entirely cut off (for whatever reason) would a nullsec bloc be able to produce ships and equipment on their own? Would they have a surplus if they did?

Is there presently an arbitrary control on production slots in nullsec?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#488 - 2013-12-03 22:10:44 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?


Then simple, remove jump freighters from the game.
That will solve all of poor null sec's industry problems (which don't exist at all).
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#489 - 2013-12-03 22:16:40 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?




So I was wondering about that. If nullsec were to have an easier time at production slots, would this mean more stuff made in nullsec and then transported to Jita for sale instead of more materials transported to the Forge region to be made, then sold in Jita?

Is the entire point of production to sell stuff for profit(?) or to support a direct war/infrastructure effort or both? Was it intended either way originally? If highsec were entirely cut off (for whatever reason) would a nullsec bloc be able to produce ships and equipment on their own? Would they have a surplus if they did?

Is there presently an arbitrary control on production slots in nullsec?



If high sec disappeared tomorrow, null sec would carry one quite nicely.
They have the ability to put dozens of mfg slots in each station, and no limit to POS based industry.
They also have EVERY raw material high sec does, and of course far more, in far higher concentrations.

The simple reason that no one builds stuff in null sec (which of course is a total lie, since massive massive resources go into supercaps, and all kinds of other products), is because the typical player can make so much more per hour running anoms and plexes and belts compared to what they can make doing industry.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#490 - 2013-12-03 22:17:38 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?


Then simple, remove jump freighters from the game.
That will solve all of poor null sec's industry problems (which don't exist at all).


I see. So the answer to hi-sec manufacturing having an incredible advantage over 0.0 is to deny 0.0 the ability to import from hi-sec?

Who does this help, exactly? How?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#491 - 2013-12-03 22:24:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?


Then simple, remove jump freighters from the game.
That will solve all of poor null sec's industry problems (which don't exist at all).


I see. So the answer to hi-sec manufacturing having an incredible advantage over 0.0 is to deny 0.0 the ability to import from hi-sec?

Who does this help, exactly? How?


Ah, it will it force your null sec industrialists to make stuff (which of course they already do), but imagine the other repercussions. As your null sec industry takes off, all those T2 mats you now jf back to high sec will instead be diverted to the null sec industrial hubs that will be forced to spring up. Those T2 mats won't make it to high sec, thereby strangling high sec industry, killing high sec, which is what you want all along.

See, I am helping you with your agenda to destroy high sec.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#492 - 2013-12-03 22:25:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


I see. So the answer to hi-sec manufacturing having an incredible advantage over 0.0 is to deny 0.0 the ability to import from hi-sec?

Who does this help, exactly? How?

Given the Odyssey buff, I'm not convinced High Sec still has an advantage at all over 0.0. Let alone an incredible advantage. High sec has certain things 0.0 doesn't, but 0.0 has a significant number of other advantages in return, namely in the resource availability department. But also on speed on certain items.

Certainly pre odyssey there was a massive high sec advantage, but Odyssey brought massive changes to outpost slots.
And the numbers presented thus far don't show High Sec actually having a massive advantage anymore.
Valterra Craven
#493 - 2013-12-03 22:32:58 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.


I could personally take every spawning signature in a whole constellation if I had a mind to. Even in gurista space which is about the fastest turnover, and hence fastest chance of more spawning up.

My entire constellation has no systems above -0.2. That means no respawning havens or sanctums, and at best, if everyone sticks around and "farms" each systems daily to hold military 5, 4 hubs per system, of which only 1 is a forsaken. That forsaken will be down for 5 minutes after each time it is done too. So that means my entire constellation can support about 7 accounts at any one time ratting or plexing above 60m/hr -> and that is _after_ someone flies a frieghter to those systems at least twice each.

Guess what, systems like mine, and constellations like mine, are pretty damn common.

Systems that are -1.0 to -0.8 are actually far rarer, and some of them are NPC too and can't be upgraded. There are a couple of those in the area of Vale that is PBLRD space.

The actual shittyness of fly over territory is why there are half a dozen military 5 rat holes in good trusec in an alliances territory and NONE of the other systems are farmed or upgraded - because there is just no point. Null population reflects the way the truesec is distributed and the way that the dominion arrays and anomolies perform in different truesec.

oh and dare I mention that basic overseer faction rats, almost never pop in bad truesec systems - even low pops better.


These are all good points (ones others have failed to provide.)

(Again none of this was even in game when I was in Null)

So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.
Valterra Craven
#494 - 2013-12-03 22:38:24 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Yeah since I've left null has gotten massive buffs that didn't exist when I was player...

What took 10 alts and 3 NPC stations back then would take 5 alts and one fully upgraded outpost today...

The last sentence has been true for at least 6 months and is something you refuse to acknowledge.

The fact of the matter is that huge alliances have existed since before you, and before BoB.

If there's so much junk space out there, then no one should be willing to fight and hold it... thus leaving the door open for small groups like I'm suggesting.

If null is so garbage compared to empire then why is your alliance so big and holds so many regions eh? If things were as out of balance as you say they were, then you wouldn't exist in the form you do today.



Thank you for highlighting your lack of coherence and understanding.



Thank you for highlighting your lack of debate skills without backing up why this is the case.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#495 - 2013-12-03 22:41:25 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.


I could personally take every spawning signature in a whole constellation if I had a mind to. Even in gurista space which is about the fastest turnover, and hence fastest chance of more spawning up.

My entire constellation has no systems above -0.2. That means no respawning havens or sanctums, and at best, if everyone sticks around and "farms" each systems daily to hold military 5, 4 hubs per system, of which only 1 is a forsaken. That forsaken will be down for 5 minutes after each time it is done too. So that means my entire constellation can support about 7 accounts at any one time ratting or plexing above 60m/hr -> and that is _after_ someone flies a frieghter to those systems at least twice each.

Guess what, systems like mine, and constellations like mine, are pretty damn common.

Systems that are -1.0 to -0.8 are actually far rarer, and some of them are NPC too and can't be upgraded. There are a couple of those in the area of Vale that is PBLRD space.

The actual shittyness of fly over territory is why there are half a dozen military 5 rat holes in good trusec in an alliances territory and NONE of the other systems are farmed or upgraded - because there is just no point. Null population reflects the way the truesec is distributed and the way that the dominion arrays and anomolies perform in different truesec.

oh and dare I mention that basic overseer faction rats, almost never pop in bad truesec systems - even low pops better.


These are all good points (ones others have failed to provide.)

(Again none of this was even in game when I was in Null)

So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.


Until the SAME situation that caused the anomaly nerf happens again. How many times does CCP have to buff null, find out thats bad, and nerf null again?

When something is a problem, you fix IT, not the consequneces it causes. The problem (in the case of combat PVE) is that it's too easy to make in high sec with too much safety. The rewards in null are fine, it's not lack of reward that cause folks like me to maintain high sec alts, it's how "easy mode" high sec combat pve is.




Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#496 - 2013-12-03 22:41:27 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:


So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.


Incursions are already heavily scaled in null sec. They are much harder, but the payouts much higher.
But null sec folks seldom run them because they can't be bothered getting into shiny ships in a group that they actually have to pay for, as opposed to all the fleet sanctioned ships that are free.

Why run in a group making 200M/hour in null, risking a 2-4 billion ISK ship, when you can run solo in null and make 120-150M / hour, in a less blingy ship?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#497 - 2013-12-03 22:42:00 UTC
Jump freighters have accomplished two things:

1) Assisted in power concentration in nullsec by being a massive boon to medium/semilarge scale logistics.

2) Since transporting goods to highsec has become so trivial, people just load their JF full of **** and take it to highsec. There's no reason to bother manipulating the goods more than you need to. Straight to highsec in the JF winboat, and sell it there.

So yeah, I do agree that the balance of JF is pretty much off - the problem is, if you nerfed them, you would be obligated to nerf Titans as well, and that made not sit well with everybody.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#498 - 2013-12-03 22:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.


Incursions are already heavily scaled in null sec. They are much harder, but the payouts much higher.
But null sec folks seldom run them because they can't be bothered getting into shiny ships in a group that they actually have to pay for, as opposed to all the fleet sanctioned ships that are free.

Why run in a group making 200M/hour in null, risking a 2-4 billion ISK ship, when you can run solo in null and make 120-150M / hour, in a less blingy ship?


And if you have a single honest bone in your body, complete the thought:

Why run solo in null making 120 to 150 mil an hour in an expensive ratting ship (because you're only making that kind of isk in a marauder or pirate ship or carrier) waiting to become an embarrising killmail if you screw up or don't pay attention when you can X up in an incursion communiy chat, get in a fleet you yourself didn't have to form and use the SAME mach/vindi/nightmare in a high sec incursion covered by both CONCORD and 11 Logistic ships while making comparable isk and CONCORD LP?

I'm serious, think about it. Answer honestly if you can.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#499 - 2013-12-03 22:51:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.


Incursions are already heavily scaled in null sec. They are much harder, but the payouts much higher.
But null sec folks seldom run them because they can't be bothered getting into shiny ships in a group that they actually have to pay for, as opposed to all the fleet sanctioned ships that are free.

Why run in a group making 200M/hour in null, risking a 2-4 billion ISK ship, when you can run solo in null and make 120-150M / hour, in a less blingy ship?


And if you have a single honest bone in your body, complete the thought:

Why run solo in null making 120 to 150 mil an hour in an expensive ratting ship (because you're only making that kind of isk in a marauder or pirate ship or carrier) waiting to become an embarrising killmail if you screw up or don't pay attention when you can X up in an incursion communiy chat, get in a fleet you yourself didn't have to form and use the SAME mach/vindi/nightmare in a high sec incursion covered by both CONCORD and 11 Logistic ships while making comparable isk and CONCORD LP?

I'm serious, think about it. Answer honestly if you can.


LOL....right, and NO ONE ever gets ganked in high sec. Gimme a break.
Running incursions in high sec is fraught with risk, and a major pain in the butt on the occasions DIN, TVP, and ISN get into a pissing contest shutting down mom's as soon as they appear.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#500 - 2013-12-03 22:55:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


So lets think about this for a sec and offer solutions. I think the simplest solution would be to offer an empire lvl 4 or 5 agent in player made outposts that have been upgraded a certain way. That way anyone with access to the station can have all the income they want as easily as hi sec and is comparable to Hi-sec mechanics, but offers better rewards.

Either that or figure out some kind of scaling mechanic for null sec like incursions etc for those players to run...

This doesn't nerf high sec and fixes null. Everyone is happy.


Incursions are already heavily scaled in null sec. They are much harder, but the payouts much higher.
But null sec folks seldom run them because they can't be bothered getting into shiny ships in a group that they actually have to pay for, as opposed to all the fleet sanctioned ships that are free.

Why run in a group making 200M/hour in null, risking a 2-4 billion ISK ship, when you can run solo in null and make 120-150M / hour, in a less blingy ship?


And if you have a single honest bone in your body, complete the thought:

Why run solo in null making 120 to 150 mil an hour in an expensive ratting ship (because you're only making that kind of isk in a marauder or pirate ship or carrier) waiting to become an embarrising killmail if you screw up or don't pay attention when you can X up in an incursion communiy chat, get in a fleet you yourself didn't have to form and use the SAME mach/vindi/nightmare in a high sec incursion covered by both CONCORD and 11 Logistic ships while making comparable isk and CONCORD LP?

I'm serious, think about it. Answer honestly if you can.


LOL....right, and NO ONE ever gets ganked in high sec. Gimme a break.
Running incursions in high sec is fraught with risk, and a major pain in the butt on the occasions DIN, TVP, and ISN get into a pissing contest shutting down mom's as soon as they appear.


As expected, you lack the honesty and bravery to answer honestly.

Who said no one ever gets ganked in high sec? Even so, anwser the question, why do an expensive ship in null for the same isk you can make with the same ship in high sec rotected by logistics ships?