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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Valterra Craven
#461 - 2013-12-03 21:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
La Nariz wrote:


If its sec was between -0.7 and -1.0 that is the minority, so yeah vast swaths are worthless. Sure we could plop outposts and other structures down that would require defending and maintenance just to get near the level of a single highsec system but, then you're wasting resources on something that still won't compare to a highsec system.

-Moving industry to POS makes wardecs/risk more significant as there is stuff to be threatened, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

-Moving industry to POS adds logistical costs to industry for highsec, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

-Moving industry to POS removes considerable NPC assistance, so that puts null/low/wh producers on more of an even footing with highsec producers.

Of course there are little details I am intentionally not bringing up because it'll bring out pedantic-highsec-npc-alt-n+1 so that's the general idea.


Your kinda proving my point here. Not all null sec should be the land of easy milk and honey. CCP wants you to invest time and resources to make systems better, these are conflict drivers. You can't expect null to all be -1.0

But even so, your argument falls flat since I did pretty darn good for myself ratting in poop NPC controlled space and did much better than I could ever do in empire.

The only change that would make sense is to null and that would be to modify/tune the efficiency of the outpost you already have and let you build more outposts in a single system.

Nerfing hi sec is not going to fix the problems of null sec.
Valterra Craven
#462 - 2013-12-03 21:10:18 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Well I'd just like to point out that

A. It doesn't take thousands of players to build and maintain outposts.
B. Empire stations are more generalist, they have lots of slots but no bonuses
Null Stations are more specialized, fewer slots, but with much greater bonuses

The imbalance is in your head.


And here's where you show you are a highsec pubbie pretending to know about nullsec.

Sure it literally only takes one person to put down the egg but it must be watched or someone will steal/kill it. It must be defended or else someone will take it. Both things highsec rightfully doesn't have to deal with but, wrongfully they get to excel in all areas whereas nullsec outposts get to be terrible in all but one area.

Once again something player made and maintained is considerably worse than something NPCs hand to the player.


I'm not a highsec pubbie, I was heavily involved in t2 production in null before you guys were even a blink in the eye of BoB.

My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#463 - 2013-12-03 21:15:42 UTC
Oh look.

It's this thread again.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#464 - 2013-12-03 21:17:17 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Of course there are little details I am intentionally not bringing up because it'll bring out pedantic-highsec-npc-alt-n+1 so that's the general idea.

Those little details being that Null industry is actually in a fine place right now and you want it to be so good it buries high sec in the dirt forever meaning you get all the high sec isk as well?
My assumptions were not wrong. I was presenting the assumption as an 'if this is true, look at the numbers'
As another poster has answered in this thread, you could choose to build those outposts in every single system, which would give you massive industrial capacity now that Outposts have been buffed.

Also you choose to use false numbers for highsec stations.

Most high sec stations have no ME slots. Those that do exist are rare, and get used by null sec players as much as high sec players.
An entire region has... 10 * 20 slots in high sec. To take where I currently am. Given we just looked at an 81 system null sec region, that means 1 in every 8 systems would have a research outpost that isn't fully upgraded yet. If fully upgraded to a similar ratio Null would have significantly more ME slots.
Time Efficiency we do a little better with. 13*20 slots across the entire region.
Copying 13*10 slots.
Invention 13*20 slots.

Meaning that one research outpost per 8 systems, Null Sec has a massive research advantage. The fact you choose to not use the advantage does not mean the potential for null to exceed high doesn't exist. It simply means you have chosen to not put the effort in. Which makes any argument about high sec having too many invalid.

Manufacturing High sec does do better at, with 46*50 slots. (Amazing, not a single 150 slot station like you claimed existed, nor any 100 slot research stations..... Someone should learn to use standard measures)
However, a single upgraded Factory outpost can reach 310 slots using the Odyssey patch notes as reference. (1.0, near the bottom) Meaning 1 Outpost = 6 High Sec stations, meaning to equal high sec manufacturing ability you only need 8 fully upgraded factory outposts, or 1 every 10 systems using the aforementioned 81 system region.

And there are only four outpost types.....

I'm sure there are exceptions to this that if you really dig you can find, and I'm sure you will dig, but they will be the edge cases, and you could counteract those with potential edge cases in Null if you concentrated.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2013-12-03 21:17:45 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

Your kinda proving my point here. Not all null sec should be the land of easy milk and honey. CCP wants you to invest time and resources to make systems better, these are conflict drivers. You can't expect null to all be -1.0

But even so, your argument falls flat since I did pretty darn good for myself ratting in poop NPC controlled space and did much better than I could ever do in empire.

The only change that would make sense is to null and that would be to modify/tune the efficiency of the outpost you already have and let you build more outposts in a single system.

Nerfing hi sec is not going to fix the problems of null sec.


And you're missing the point that no matter how much we invest in those systems they won't be better than a highsec system. If there was an infinite amount of investment we could make to get better space this wouldn't be an issue.

If you want to use stupid anecdotes I have several industry/research alts in highsec that do way better than I could ever do in nullsec.

The only change that would make sense is to modify/tune highsec so that it is no longer better than nullsec.

Nerfing highsec is going to fix the problems of null sec.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-12-03 21:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Malcanis wrote:
Oh look.

It's this thread again.


Maybe it should be a sticky? That way it can stop coming up every 10 or so days.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#467 - 2013-12-03 21:20:53 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

I'm not a highsec pubbie, I was heavily involved in t2 production in null before you guys were even a blink in the eye of BoB.

My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.


Your experience is several years out of date as Jen pointed out already.

Sure it does with the advent of coalitions and the importance of TZ coverage sure it does.

That last sentence is untrue and only befitting of a highsec pubbie trying to pretend they know about nullsec.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2013-12-03 21:22:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I am pedantic-highsec-alt-n+1


Your assumptions were wrong and as your argument was built from them your argument is also wrong.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#469 - 2013-12-03 21:25:24 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Of course there are little details I am intentionally not bringing up because it'll bring out pedantic-highsec-npc-alt-n+1 so that's the general idea.

Those little details being that Null industry is actually in a fine place right now


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#470 - 2013-12-03 21:26:27 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Oh look.

It's this thread again.


Maybe it should be a sticky? That way it can stop coming up every 10 or so days.


Your optimism is adorable

Luckily, so is the optimism of people who think denying the mathematically obvious somehow fools CCP.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#471 - 2013-12-03 21:27:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

I am Nullbear-Alt+1 who can't read.

Since you seem stuck on a single line and can't seem to get past it to the rest of the maths showing you are wrong.
The assumption was what is known as a test assumption.
'If this is true, what will the results be'.
And the results were that Null has a massive industrial & research potential.

I've never said Null has an outpost in every system currently. However. If you buff Nulls current outposts to the point that you currently have more research & manufacturing than high sec does overall, then when you build additional outposts, you get silly amounts. So to keep balance, you have to measure up the potential of null if every possible outpost was built, hence the 'assumption' you are stuck on.

Also look, I can fake quote you too and pretend you are irrelevant by calling you names, see how awesome it makes me!
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#472 - 2013-12-03 21:27:43 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Null has always had 3-5 blocs. Currently there are, depending upon how you count it, 3 (cfc, rus, n3) or 4 (cfc, rus, n3, pl) or 5 (cfc, rus, n3, pl, ncdot).

You're welcome to disagree with me about null politics, but you're probably wrong if you do. vOv


Using the term "bloc" is misleading. 5 years ago a "bloc" would have been best described as a regaional group of alliances that may or may not have standings but could be expected to unify against an outside invader. In modern Eve a "bloc" is a true coalition with a shared command structure.

Force projection through the jump bridge has changed Eve politics in the same way that force projection through the air craft carrier has changed global politics. How many new countries have emerged since the 50's?

Where are all the small defiant voices in the landscape of null, with their petty squabbles, irrational betrayals, and pride? Why is every conflict in null a global affair?

Trying to get "5" blocs out of the current state of null is a tough sell (of course we won't discuss the eternal provi bloc). N3 and PL are so closely aligned that it is very fair to call them a single bloc if not just lump them all together as N3.

I think that the real debate is if there is infact a third new bloc. Has Stainwagon created a "new" null bloc or simply transitioned into an arm of the CFC. It appears more the latter.

Valterra Craven
#473 - 2013-12-03 21:28:25 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

Your experience is several years out of date as Jen pointed out already.

Sure it does with the advent of coalitions and the importance of TZ coverage sure it does.

That last sentence is untrue and only befitting of a highsec pubbie trying to pretend they know about nullsec.



Yeah since I've left null has gotten massive buffs that didn't exist when I was player...

What took 10 alts and 3 NPC stations back then would take 5 alts and one fully upgraded outpost today...

The last sentence has been true for at least 6 months and is something you refuse to acknowledge.

The fact of the matter is that huge alliances have existed since before you, and before BoB.

If there's so much junk space out there, then no one should be willing to fight and hold it... thus leaving the door open for small groups like I'm suggesting.

If null is so garbage compared to empire then why is your alliance so big and holds so many regions eh? If things were as out of balance as you say they were, then you wouldn't exist in the form you do today.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#474 - 2013-12-03 21:29:27 UTC
NickSuccorso wrote:


Where are all the small defiant voices in the landscape of null, with their petty squabbles, irrational betrayals, and pride?


Curse.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#475 - 2013-12-03 21:29:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2013-12-03 21:30:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Since you seem stuck on a single line and can't seem to get past it to the rest of the maths showing you are wrong.
The assumption was what is known as a test assumption.
'If this is true, what will the results be'.
And the results were that Null has a massive industrial & research potential.

I've never said Null has an outpost in every system currently. However. If you buff Nulls current outposts to the point that you currently have more research & manufacturing than high sec does overall, then when you build additional outposts, you get silly amounts. So to keep balance, you have to measure up the potential of null if every possible outpost was built, hence the 'assumption' you are stuck on.

Also look, I can fake quote you too and pretend you are irrelevant by calling you names, see how awesome it makes me!


I can ignore your entire argument because you built on false assumptions. Now that I did do that you are throwing a ~Highsec Tantrum~. Now if you want to make an argument that does not start of flawed and stop your ~Highsec Tantrum~ I'll be happy to discuss things with you.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#477 - 2013-12-03 21:31:21 UTC
Also: Stain

For instance, all summer this year, while the people who assume that everything there is to be known about 0.0 can be read on EN24 and the CFC squared off against TEST/N3/PL, a rather smaller conflict was taking place in Stain. Virtually no news was published, but battles were fought almost every day.

Did you even know about that?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#478 - 2013-12-03 21:32:19 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Except for the trivial fact that no one makes anything there unless they can't make it anywhere else

Exceptions: cap boosters, ratting ammo, cyno frigates

The causes for that are not Null Industry being in a poor state though, but to do with supply lines. Which are totally unrelated to how many slots Null has compared to High Security. And available markets. & Centralisation.
Hence my separation of those kinds of market factors out from the actual industrial power available.


given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#479 - 2013-12-03 21:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Valterra Craven wrote:


My point was merely that it doesn't take 5 thousand people to take and hold a constellation. Just because numbers is your game doesn't mean that's what you need to be successful. I also wasn't saying that a corp of 10 people could do it either 200-500? sure. This is especially true of the space you deem to be so darn worthless...

Once again something player made and maintained is more specialized and better at its role then any thing an NPC has.


I could personally take every spawning signature in a whole constellation if I had a mind to. Even in gurista space which is about the fastest turnover, and hence fastest chance of more spawning up.

My entire constellation has no systems above -0.2. That means no respawning havens or sanctums, and at best, if everyone sticks around and "farms" each systems daily to hold military 5, 4 hubs per system, of which only 1 is a forsaken. That forsaken will be down for 5 minutes after each time it is done too. So that means my entire constellation can support about 7 accounts at any one time ratting or plexing above 60m/hr -> and that is _after_ someone flies a frieghter to those systems at least twice each.

Guess what, systems like mine, and constellations like mine, are pretty damn common.

Systems that are -1.0 to -0.8 are actually far rarer, and some of them are NPC too and can't be upgraded. There are a couple of those in the area of Vale that is PBLRD space.

The actual shittyness of fly over territory is why there are half a dozen military 5 rat holes in good trusec in an alliances territory and NONE of the other systems are farmed or upgraded - because there is just no point. Null population reflects the way the truesec is distributed and the way that the dominion arrays and anomolies perform in different truesec.

oh and dare I mention that basic overseer faction rats, almost never pop in bad truesec systems - even low pops better.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#480 - 2013-12-03 21:46:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

given that Jump Freighters exist, why would you build anything in 0.0 vs hi-sec?

Given that CCP will never have the guts to admit their mistakes and kill jumpfreighters and titan bridges we might as well give up on this game.

.