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Eve Down Under Bombshell: No Sov overhaul until at least Winter 2014

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#261 - 2013-12-03 00:43:36 UTC
guys I am totally making so much money but you will just have to trust me on this one

here is an emoticon so you know I am trustworthy: Idea
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2013-12-03 00:44:34 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Full API or bust.


You first.


I'm not the one making the wild claims, you are.


You heard it here first folks -- living in nullsec and making isk is a wild claim!!! Shocked

******* wild.


~citation required~

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#263 - 2013-12-03 00:45:13 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
guys I am totally making so much money but you will just have to trust me on this one

here is an emoticon so you know I am trustworthy: Idea


I'm not claiming to be super space rich.

The only things I have pointed out are:

1) Nullsec is extremely profitable.

That's basically it.
Deunan Tenephais
#264 - 2013-12-03 00:46:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
So you don't understand power creep? That only buffing things leads to a sort of inflation. Its not that nullsec is restricted its more that it is handicapped. Picture a swimming event, highsec is given steroids and flippers while nullsec is strapped with 50kg weights.

Power creep isn't fun or entertaining and its hard to manage well, CCP has stated in the past that they don't want power creep as well. So nerfing highsec is the way to fix other sec status without power creep.

First, powercreep is a real problem against environment, because if the power of players is creeping, then all players stay at stable relative power level from each other.
The last time I looked at it, Eve was nowhere near pve paradise.

Second, you said yourself that null has been overnerfed, then why not rebuff it until it become acceptable again ?
It was not super overpowered at the time, was it ?
It was not the super sayan of the game.
So a middle ground power level should be fine.

@Stahlregen: you admitted yourself that alliance work was a hassle.
Should I have understood that it is a hassle without being so overburdening that it stays fun ?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#265 - 2013-12-03 00:50:03 UTC
The only thing I will comment on as to what has been discussed in the last few pages is the assertion that it is far too easy to project massive amounts of power in Null Sec.

This is exactly true and has been a literal Pandora's Box of trouble since the system was introduced, and it is far too difficult to disrupt this ability.

Hopefully this is one of the "chunks" that will be dealt with in the near future.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2013-12-03 00:51:31 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So you don't understand power creep? That only buffing things leads to a sort of inflation. Its not that nullsec is restricted its more that it is handicapped. Picture a swimming event, highsec is given steroids and flippers while nullsec is strapped with 50kg weights.

Power creep isn't fun or entertaining and its hard to manage well, CCP has stated in the past that they don't want power creep as well. So nerfing highsec is the way to fix other sec status without power creep.

First, powercreep is a real problem against environment, because if the power of players is creeping, then all players stay at stable relative power level from each other.
The last time I looked at it, Eve was nowhere near pve paradise.

Second, you said yourself that null has been overnerfed, then why not rebuff it until it become acceptable again ?
It was not super overpowered at the time, was it ?
It was not the super sayan of the game.
So a middle ground power level should be fine.

@Stahlregen: you admitted yourself that alliance work was a hassle.
Should I have understood that it is a hassle without being so overburdening that it stays fun ?


The problem has been that highsec has been buffed and nullsec has been nerfed. There hasn't been a buff<->nerf balance for the two sec areas. One gets buffs one gets nerfs. So if we decide to buff nullsec above highsec that is power creep right there. Sure if you want to get pedantic there can be buffs/nerfs but, you don't want to get pedantic do you? The main thing that needs to happen are highsec nerfs.

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#267 - 2013-12-03 00:53:50 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So you don't understand power creep? That only buffing things leads to a sort of inflation. Its not that nullsec is restricted its more that it is handicapped. Picture a swimming event, highsec is given steroids and flippers while nullsec is strapped with 50kg weights.

Power creep isn't fun or entertaining and its hard to manage well, CCP has stated in the past that they don't want power creep as well. So nerfing highsec is the way to fix other sec status without power creep.

First, powercreep is a real problem against environment, because if the power of players is creeping, then all players stay at stable relative power level from each other.
The last time I looked at it, Eve was nowhere near pve paradise.

Second, you said yourself that null has been overnerfed, then why not rebuff it until it become acceptable again ?
It was not super overpowered at the time, was it ?
It was not the super sayan of the game.
So a middle ground power level should be fine.

@Stahlregen: you admitted yourself that alliance work was a hassle.
Should I have understood that it is a hassle without being so overburdening that it stays fun ?


The problem has been that highsec has been buffed and nullsec has been nerfed. There hasn't been a buff<->nerf balance for the two sec areas. One gets buffs one gets nerfs. So if we decide to buff nullsec above highsec that is power creep right there. Sure if you want to get pedantic there can be buffs/nerfs but, you don't want to get pedantic do you? The main thing that needs to happen are highsec nerfs.


A buff of high sec????
Exactly when did that occur?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2013-12-03 00:54:05 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on as to what has been discussed in the last few pages is the assertion that it is far too easy to project massive amounts of power in Null Sec.

This is exactly true and has been a literal Pandora's Box of trouble since the system was introduced, and it is far too difficult to disrupt this ability.

Hopefully this is one of the "chunks" that will be dealt with in the near future.

I largely agree with this, though I'm not really sure how to fix it without utterly breaking basic 0.0 <-> highsec logistics. Geography is no barrier in the current meta, and so every war is a world war. That eliminates the ability of small entities to break into 0.0 and grow away from the big guys.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Stahlregen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2013-12-03 00:54:46 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So you don't understand power creep? That only buffing things leads to a sort of inflation. Its not that nullsec is restricted its more that it is handicapped. Picture a swimming event, highsec is given steroids and flippers while nullsec is strapped with 50kg weights.

Power creep isn't fun or entertaining and its hard to manage well, CCP has stated in the past that they don't want power creep as well. So nerfing highsec is the way to fix other sec status without power creep.

First, powercreep is a real problem against environment, because if the power of players is creeping, then all players stay at stable relative power level from each other.
The last time I looked at it, Eve was nowhere near pve paradise.

Second, you said yourself that null has been overnerfed, then why not rebuff it until it become acceptable again ?
It was not super overpowered at the time, was it ?
It was not the super sayan of the game.
So a middle ground power level should be fine.

@Stahlregen: you admitted yourself that alliance work was a hassle.
Should I have understood that it is a hassle without being so overburdening that it stays fun ?



I don't remember admitting "alliance work" is a hassle as I don't do "alliance work". I'm not even quite sure what you mean by the phrase.

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A VHS INTO THE SLOT. IT'S CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE THE MAIN CHARACTER, RIDDICK. I DO EVERY MOVE AND I DO EVERY MOVE HARD. MAKIN' WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I SLAM DOWN SOME NECRO BASTARDS. NOT MANY CAN SAY THEY ESCAPED THE GALAXY'S MOST DANGEROUS PRISON. I CAN.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#270 - 2013-12-03 00:55:05 UTC
Are there people in this thread being proud that they rent out systems?

Next we will meet people who are proud that they rent systems.

I guess all those endless threads demonizing highsec players pays off. Look at what people will do to go into nullsec.

Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?

Last I checked, no market, in game and out, ever worked like that. People don't pay for suckage.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#271 - 2013-12-03 00:56:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Working on sov in chunks is exactly the plan. The close to exact words I used at Down Under were "Summer won't have everything you're hoping for". What I was trying to convey was exactly the fact that this is not a project we're going to be putting in one giant patch. That's been the plan for quite a while now, and was the plan we were working from when we released Odyssey (you may remember some slight changes to nullsec in that patch Lol). We will keep working in that same way, taking on 0.0 gameplay improvements in layers and iterations.

The chunk we are attacking in Summer 2014 is not the specific mechanics for taking systems. That comes a bit later in the plan. Part of our post-mortem from Dominion was the realization that CCP had looked at sov with too narrow of a focus, leading to a release that caused as many problems as it solved (another part of that post-mortem was "**** HP based objectives").

Summer 2014 will improve some targeted parts of nullsec mechanics (as well as other areas of space) and will get us ever closer to the patch that drops changes to the flashy conquering mechanics that are often mistakenly considered the only "sovereignty rework" that matters.
The reason why people are so interested in so-called "flashy" mechanics like sov is because it is hands down the biggest and most fundamental issue concerning nullsec and causes a considerable amount of grief to a lot of people.

All of these chunks of fixes and steps in the right direction that CCP has made are not having the significant impacts that are needed due to the lack of necessary change to the sov system.

Shouldn't fixes to things that cause the most player grief be prioritized, like what was done with T3 subsystem refitting or the new deployable structures?
Stahlregen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-12-03 00:56:54 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Are there people in this thread being proud that they rent out systems?



No, At least I didn't see anyone. Where did you see this? Why is it even relevant?

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A VHS INTO THE SLOT. IT'S CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I START DOING THE MOVES ALONGSIDE THE MAIN CHARACTER, RIDDICK. I DO EVERY MOVE AND I DO EVERY MOVE HARD. MAKIN' WHOOSHING SOUNDS WHEN I SLAM DOWN SOME NECRO BASTARDS. NOT MANY CAN SAY THEY ESCAPED THE GALAXY'S MOST DANGEROUS PRISON. I CAN.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2013-12-03 00:57:24 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

A buff of high sec????
Exactly when did that occur?


It occurs every patch.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#274 - 2013-12-03 01:01:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The problem has been that highsec has been buffed and nullsec has been nerfed.

Here's a thought - perhaps CCP knows that (hard core) null sec players will stick around the game waiting for some better changes while also knowing that disrupting too many high sec players might find them leaving in droves.

It's all about the bottom line.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#275 - 2013-12-03 01:01:13 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?


Because it isn't bad. Nullsec rules in terms of an income stream. There are high value moons, every single PvE spawn is worth exponentially more than the highsec equivalent.

Pretty much everything you can do is more profitable in nullsec than in highsec...There's not that many exceptions I can think of. Perhaps manufacturing simple goods? Selling items?

I mean, selling goods in highsec (jita in particular) is always very fast/efficient, but highsec has always been a kind of trade hub...

The whiners in the thread screaming about how nullsec needs to be buffed are just typical childish players begging for free gimme gimmes. CCP has historically ignored this kind of crap, and I hope they continue to do so.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#276 - 2013-12-03 01:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?

Last I checked, no market, in game and out, ever worked like that. People don't pay for suckage.


Lolwhat?

People don't pay for an inferior product or experience? When was the last time you checked?

I mean, the very existence of pretty much every other MMO is proof that your statement isn't true. The PC port of Dark Souls, now considered the worst port in history, selling 5 million copies in the first month proves that statement false.

People pay for suckage all the time. It's a matter of if you're the one giving or receiving the payment.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#277 - 2013-12-03 01:06:38 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?


Because it isn't bad. Nullsec rules in terms of an income stream. There are high value moons, every single PvE spawn is worth exponentially more than the highsec equivalent.

Pretty much everything you can do is more profitable in nullsec than in highsec...There's not that many exceptions I can think of. Perhaps manufacturing simple goods? Selling items?

Set autopilot to Osmon

Accept level 4 mission from Sisters of Eve

money appears as if by magic
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#278 - 2013-12-03 01:07:48 UTC
incidentally the addition of bastion mode relieved a significant tank requirement from Marauders, and the introduction of the mobile tractor unit means that you don't even have to stick around to loot the L4

if it looks like a highsec buff and quacks like a highsec buff
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#279 - 2013-12-03 01:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?


Because it isn't bad. Nullsec rules in terms of an income stream. There are high value moons, every single PvE spawn is worth exponentially more than the highsec equivalent.

Pretty much everything you can do is more profitable in nullsec than in highsec...There's not that many exceptions I can think of. Perhaps manufacturing simple goods? Selling items?

Set autopilot to Osmon

Accept level 4 mission from Sisters of Eve

money appears as if by magic


Yes, because there doesn't exist a corporation that offers those ships for less loyalty points and offers you more loyalty points per mission.

Hint: this corporation exists in nullsec.

Promiscuous Female wrote:
incidentally the addition of bastion mode relieved a significant tank requirement from Marauders, and the introduction of the mobile tractor unit means that you don't even have to stick around to loot the L4

if it looks like a highsec buff and quacks like a highsec buff


Does bastion mode not work in nullsec? That's news. I also thought mobile tractors worked in nullsec. Strange. Perhaps you should file a bug report.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#280 - 2013-12-03 01:12:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet there are still no answers to my question. If nullsec is so bad, why do people pay ISK just to be there?


Because it isn't bad. Nullsec rules in terms of an income stream. There are high value moons, every single PvE spawn is worth exponentially more than the highsec equivalent.

Pretty much everything you can do is more profitable in nullsec than in highsec...There's not that many exceptions I can think of. Perhaps manufacturing simple goods? Selling items?

Set autopilot to Osmon

Accept level 4 mission from Sisters of Eve

money appears as if by magic


Yes, because there doesn't exist a corporation that offers those ships for less loyalty points and offers you more loyalty points per mission.

Hint: this corporation exists in nullsec.

Except for the fact that there are two (three? not sure if the third one got converted back) L4 agents in Osmon for SOE compared to all of one in X-7, meaning that a highsec dude is able to stack missions and earn way more purchasing power than the nullsec dude can