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Battleships???
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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-11-28 20:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.



EFT, it has all the answers. Doesn't even need a human pilot thinking outside the box at all.

Numbers alone are not the only variable to consider.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-11-28 20:31:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.



Let me guess, anti amtter ammo only?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2013-11-28 20:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The only way you can compare a ship is compare it without extraneous data.
Ok. So what you're saying is that the Proteus isn't used in nullsec because it can't compete with the Mackinaw.

You're still missing the point: you're making a comparison of solo ships in an attempt to validate your incorrect claim that there aren't any battleships being used in nullsec. Your special pleading for a very particular solo fit is just as invalid as you claim fleet fits are, and the conclusion you draw from your fallacious comparison is equally invalid because it does not follow from (or is even related to) the fallacious premise.

Quote:
Battleships are totally fine because we can get someone else in fleet to neut, web, scram, snipe or whatever it is that your ship cannot do for you.

That totally defeats the purpose of assessing whether a ship in itself, is okay or not.
No, it doesn't, because it rests on the unfounded assumptions that all ships are meant for the same purposes, and that all of those purposes are to be played out solo. So yes, battleships are totally fine, as proven by their popularity and widespread use. Just because they don't fit you use does not mean they're not fine.
Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-11-28 20:36:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


This is exactly what I mean. You guys spend so much time sitting in groups of people you actually have very little knowledge of what your ship can and cannot do individually.



This coming from the very person that claims that no proteus could ever win against a stabber solo and kill it fast enough before backup arrives (in a station system where people have to jump into the right ship..... then undock.. warp to the stabber and getting tackle on the proteus) ..... ohhhhh the irony.....
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-11-28 20:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
This will perhaps explain what I'm trying to get across. The red circles are the megas, the blue the inties, the black the orbits of the inties, no matter how spread out the megas get the inties will win.

This is assuming manual experienced intie pilots and not nubs that press orbit.

Oh and yes I'm a fantastic artist I know.

Edit: the triangles are the megas, not sure what happened to my colors.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2013-11-28 20:40:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.

Edit: also maybe true if you're hitting orbit, but if you're manually piloting no they won't.


EFT is wrong. Its only use is to see if everything will fit and to get a very rough idea of what to expect.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#87 - 2013-11-28 20:41:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.



Let me guess, anti amtter ammo only?

And not taking webs into account because they can manually pilot around 5 Megas without getting caught by a web while managing to keep their own webs and points and keeping up transversal. Maybe they developed a special technique where they can juggle webs and points idk.

Oh god.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#88 - 2013-11-28 20:43:16 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.

Edit: also maybe true if you're hitting orbit, but if you're manually piloting no they won't.


You can't orbit all 5 ships at once, ie at some point you'll be heading towards or away from some of them and 5x6xRoF bonused guns x wrecking shot chance isn't 0 dps.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-11-28 20:43:24 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Okay I'll give you at some point, they might start to hit slightly.

Then you also understand that at some point, those inties are going to be in web and scram range, and when that happens, they're going to die.

Actually I was wrong, I fed the mega and crow into EFT's dps calculator, at all ranges out to optimal + falloff x 2 the megas are hitting for 0. Check it out yourself.



Let me guess, anti amtter ammo only?

And not taking webs into account because they can manually pilot around 5 Megas without getting caught by a web while managing to keep their own webs and points and keeping up transversal. Maybe they developed a special technique where they can juggle webs and points idk.

Check my awesome pic and you'll understand why they don't get into web range. and no with null loaded.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#90 - 2013-11-28 20:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This will perhaps explain what I'm trying to get across. The red circles are the megas, the blue the inties, the black the orbits of the inties, no matter how spread out the megas get the inties will win.

This is assuming manual experienced intie pilots and not nubs that press orbit.

Oh and yes I'm a fantastic artist I know.

Edit: the triangles are the megas, not sure what happened to my colors.

I don't really get it. What are the black squares?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
null loaded.

Null has a 25% tracking penalty.

Oh god.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#91 - 2013-11-28 20:47:40 UTC
Meh. I seldom go bigger than a BC. Being in a BS is like being a big fat goose with a flock of eagles overhead.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-11-28 20:49:04 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
This will perhaps explain what I'm trying to get across. The red circles are the megas, the blue the inties, the black the orbits of the inties, no matter how spread out the megas get the inties will win.

This is assuming manual experienced intie pilots and not nubs that press orbit.

Oh and yes I'm a fantastic artist I know.

Edit: the triangles are the megas, not sure what happened to my colors.

I don't really get it. What are the black squares?

Infinity Ziona wrote:
null loaded.

Null has a 25% tracking penalty.

Yeah sorry. The black diamonds, theres one red one for some reason, are the megas, the red circles are the inties, and the black large circles are their orbit.

Antimatter won't hit them at all. So its not really important.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#93 - 2013-11-28 20:51:46 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah sorry. The black diamonds, theres one red one for some reason, are the megas, the red circles are the inties, and the black large circles are their orbit.

So the mega pilots aren't moving?

Oh god.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2013-11-28 20:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't really get it. What are the black squares?
They're the megas.
He's showing how the inties can hold a vertical orbit away from the mega it's going after, thereby keeping a constant transversal speed. The orbit doesn't alternate between passing and coming/going, but between passing left/right and passing up/down.

The point he's missing is that if the megas spread out, the range will make that transversal translate into a fairly low angular velocity and they'll be entirely possible to track. You don't go after the inty that's going after you — you kill the one killing your friend who's the farthest away from you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2013-11-28 20:57:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't really get it. What are the black squares?
They're the megas.
He's showing how the inties can hold a vertical orbit away from the mega it's going after, thereby keeping a constant transversal speed. The orbit doesn't alternate between passing and coming/going, but between passing left/right and passing up/down.

The point he's missing is that if the megas spread out, the range will make that transversal translate into a fairly low angular velocity and they'll be entirely possible to track. You don't go after the inty that's going after you — you kill the one killing your friend who's the farthest away from you.


Just move two of the mega to cover one, grab webs and scrams, the other two move out and get the tracking they need, meanwhile their 25 warriors are dumped onto the now webbed cepter. Repeat until they all die or flee.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-11-28 20:58:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't really get it. What are the black squares?
They're the megas.
He's showing how the inties can hold a vertical orbit away from the mega it's going after, thereby keeping a constant transversal speed. The orbit doesn't alternate between passing and coming/going, but between passing left/right and passing up/down.

The point he's missing is that if the megas spread out, the range will make that transversal translate into a fairly low angular velocity and they'll be entirely possible to track. You don't go after the inty that's going after you — you kill the one killing your friend who's the farthest away from you.

Yeah except that the tracking and falloff of the turrets vs the inties are so terrible that as you get further away, while tracking issues reduce, you get more into falloff, meaning still no damage. Unless the mega's were fit with tracking mods with optimal scripts to increase their falloff out to maybe 60k they're not going to hit at all.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-11-28 20:58:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Check my awesome pic and you'll understand why they don't get into web range. and no with null loaded.


You have to realise that the orbit of your northern most intie will be **** to the southern most mega who can reach over 40 km.

Hell generating a clusterfuck by having 4 of the BS orbit the 5th other at 5k would probably mess up all the orbits.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#98 - 2013-11-28 20:59:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't really get it. What are the black squares?
They're the megas.
He's showing how the inties can hold a vertical orbit away from the mega it's going after, thereby keeping a constant transversal speed. The orbit doesn't alternate between passing and coming/going, but between passing left/right and passing up/down.

The point he's missing is that if the megas spread out, the range will make that transversal translate into a fairly low angular velocity and they'll be entirely possible to track. You don't go after the inty that's going after you — you kill the one killing your friend who's the farthest away from you.


Not only that, the megas themselves are moving, which means that the transversal to the -wrong- mega can be further diminished and the raw wrecking shot dps from 5 megas is 150 anyway, which doesn't care about transversal at all, and 150 dps is non trivial in the lifespan of a frigate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-11-28 21:01:13 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah sorry. The black diamonds, theres one red one for some reason, are the megas, the red circles are the inties, and the black large circles are their orbit.

So the mega pilots aren't moving?


Rapid drying concrete on the floor of the grid when the mega landed. **** happens...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-11-28 21:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
We can theory-craft this all day but its just a lot simpler to fit a heavy nuet, drain the inties, blow them up and leave...

You lose about 700dps overall from your mega gang but you gain the ability to skip all this crap.

Edit: I didn't make this all up, I was a big fan of Garmon, read a lot of his stuff and a few other great battleship small gang / solo guys.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)