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Battleships???
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Serdar Tyrnx
#21 - 2013-11-28 15:30:22 UTC
Savnire Jacitu wrote:
The other day I saw a player in a battleship SOLO a **** ton of ships and murder them all. Granted it was a mega, but still if that says anything, a ship in the right hands, no mater what it is, can be very deadly.

like this ? Proof
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-11-28 16:02:10 UTC
Grunanca wrote:
Problem is that people tend to run when you make a battleship fleet.


Hell, people run from pretty much anything, these days. I've been saying it more and more... CCP needs to come up with some kind of incentive for staying and fighting.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-11-28 17:32:55 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Grunanca wrote:
Problem is that people tend to run when you make a battleship fleet.


Hell, people run from pretty much anything, these days. I've been saying it more and more... CCP needs to come up with some kind of incentive for staying and fighting.


People run from my Ishkur all the time. They normally have ships that should outmatch it. One exception was an Absolution yesterday, who I tried to solo, and as expected, he killed me. But usually, they just run.

In my experience, though, it depends where you go. If you take a battleship to the right place, people don't see it as a threat so much as a yummy killmail worth lots of points on Battleclinic.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-11-28 18:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Morrow Disca wrote:
Nothing but BS and T3's in 0.0 mate, what game are you playing? Shocked

Yeah apparantly the same one I'm playing, must be different to your EVE Online. I have been in null for months now and I think have seen 1 Tempest and ... yeah 1 Tempest.

Unless of course you mean battleships that are shooting red crosses, then yeah there are.. actually mostly BC shoot red crosses...

All I see around Fade, Pure Blind are cruisers, inties, hacs and T3's.

The reason...

Lets compare:

Megathron 1600 Plated Blaster T2 vs Proteus 1600 Plated Blaster T2

DPS M - 1000dps Proteus - 845 dps M: Theoretically wins +165 on paper but likely equal or less due to tracking, sig issues
EHP M - 122k Proteus - 138K P: Wins
Align M - 10.8 Proteus - 7.8 P: Wins + 3 seconds
Sig: M - 380 P - 168 P: Wins but more than 100% lower sig
Speed M 969m/s P 0 1268 m/s P: wins by 300 m/s
Warp Speed M 2 au ps P - 3 au P: wins by 1 au p/s
Targetting Range M 90km P 109km P: wins by 19km
Sensor Strength: M 25 P 39 P: wins by 18 sensor strength or almost double
Drone Bay - M 75 (75 bw) P 75 (50 bw) M: wins as it can deploy an extra 25 bandwidth

Looking at that you can clearly see that the Proteus is actually the battleship and the Mega is well, shite.. And the mega is one of the better battleships, although the Prot is one of the better T3's.

You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's, 3 of those cost more than 3 T3 subs (T3 subs 60 mill, T2 Trimarks 80 mill). When you fit out both ships they come out to about equal cost if fitting T2.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Othran
Route One
#25 - 2013-11-28 18:09:01 UTC
Confirming I've never ever seen BSs in small gangs/solo Roll

Warp changes make small gang stuff more of an issue than solo where you're not exactly playing Mr Speedy are you?
Othran
Route One
#26 - 2013-11-28 18:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Grunanca wrote:
Problem is that people tend to run when you make a battleship fleet.


Hell, people run from pretty much anything, these days. I've been saying it more and more... CCP needs to come up with some kind of incentive for staying and fighting.


Why?

If winning the fight isn't enough incentive then I don't see what CCP can do about it.

People stick or they run, you find out soon enough which are which and adapt accordingly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2013-11-28 18:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's
Not really, no. Not to mention that the Proteus costs you half a week to lose, which means it always costs more than the Mega.

The rest of your stats also assume that you always fit the relevant subsystem for each comparison, but many of those are mutually exclusive and others are utterly irrelevant assuming previous subsystems (you don't need 109km lock range if your Proteus sports blasters). And then there's damage application — an area where medium hybrids still do… not so well…
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-11-28 18:24:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Morrow Disca wrote:
Nothing but BS and T3's in 0.0 mate, what game are you playing? Shocked

Yeah apparantly the same one I'm playing, must be different to your EVE Online. I have been in null for months now and I think have seen 1 Tempest and ... yeah 1 Tempest.

Unless of course you mean battleships that are shooting red crosses, then yeah there are.. actually mostly BC shoot red crosses...

All I see around Fade, Pure Blind are cruisers, inties, hacs and T3's.

The reason...

Lets compare:

Megathron 1600 Plated Blaster T2 vs Proteus 1600 Plated Blaster T2

DPS M - 1000dps Proteus - 845 dps M: Theoretically wins +165 on paper but likely equal or less due to tracking, sig issues
EHP M - 122k Proteus - 138K P: Wins
Align M - 10.8 Proteus - 7.8 P: Wins + 3 seconds
Sig: M - 380 P - 168 P: Wins but more than 100% lower sig
Speed M 969m/s P 0 1268 m/s P: wins by 300 m/s
Warp Speed M 2 au ps P - 3 au P: wins by 1 au p/s
Targetting Range M 90km P 109km P: wins by 19km
Sensor Strength: M 25 P 39 P: wins by 18 sensor strength or almost double
Drone Bay - M 75 (75 bw) P 75 (50 bw) M: wins as it can deploy an extra 25 bandwidth

Looking at that you can clearly see that the Proteus is actually the battleship and the Mega is well, shite.. And the mega is one of the better battleships, although the Prot is one of the better T3's.

You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's, 3 of those cost more than 3 T3 subs (T3 subs 60 mill, T2 Trimarks 80 mill). When you fit out both ships they come out to about equal cost if fitting T2.


I don't think you know how to fit Gallente.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-11-28 18:26:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's
Not really, no. Not to mention that the Proteus costs you half a week to lose, which means it always costs more than the Mega.

The rest of your stats also assume that you always fit the relevant subsystem for each comparison, but many of those are mutually exclusive and others are utterly irrelevant assuming previous subsystems (you don't need 109km lock range if your Proteus sports blasters). And then there's damage application — an area where medium hybrids still do… not so well…

No not wrong. Those stats are real and both the Mega and Proteus were fit with the exact same fittings. For the exact same task, brawling. That you can also change the subs on the Proteus to get additional benefits just adds more to the issue that the Proteus far outclasses the Megathron for the task which the Megathron should be the best at, high buffer tank close range brawler.

If you can't see that Tippia, you're a bloody [personal attack pre-removed].

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-11-28 18:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Morrow Disca wrote:
Nothing but BS and T3's in 0.0 mate, what game are you playing? Shocked

Yeah apparantly the same one I'm playing, must be different to your EVE Online. I have been in null for months now and I think have seen 1 Tempest and ... yeah 1 Tempest.

Unless of course you mean battleships that are shooting red crosses, then yeah there are.. actually mostly BC shoot red crosses...

All I see around Fade, Pure Blind are cruisers, inties, hacs and T3's.

The reason...

Lets compare:

Megathron 1600 Plated Blaster T2 vs Proteus 1600 Plated Blaster T2

DPS M - 1000dps Proteus - 845 dps M: Theoretically wins +165 on paper but likely equal or less due to tracking, sig issues
EHP M - 122k Proteus - 138K P: Wins
Align M - 10.8 Proteus - 7.8 P: Wins + 3 seconds
Sig: M - 380 P - 168 P: Wins but more than 100% lower sig
Speed M 969m/s P 0 1268 m/s P: wins by 300 m/s
Warp Speed M 2 au ps P - 3 au P: wins by 1 au p/s
Targetting Range M 90km P 109km P: wins by 19km
Sensor Strength: M 25 P 39 P: wins by 18 sensor strength or almost double
Drone Bay - M 75 (75 bw) P 75 (50 bw) M: wins as it can deploy an extra 25 bandwidth

Looking at that you can clearly see that the Proteus is actually the battleship and the Mega is well, shite.. And the mega is one of the better battleships, although the Prot is one of the better T3's.

You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's, 3 of those cost more than 3 T3 subs (T3 subs 60 mill, T2 Trimarks 80 mill). When you fit out both ships they come out to about equal cost if fitting T2.


I don't think you know how to fit Gallente.

Really because both those ships were fit with Nuetrons, with Void, 3 Magstabs, EANM's, 1 Active Exp Hardner each, 1600 Plate (mega had a damage control) and a MWD, with Trimarks...

Please elaborate on your superior fitting?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#31 - 2013-11-28 18:35:39 UTC
The only problem with battleships is that not enough people properly train and fly Rattlesnakes (king of small gang warfare).

Mr Epeen Cool
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-11-28 18:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Morrow Disca wrote:
Nothing but BS and T3's in 0.0 mate, what game are you playing? Shocked

Yeah apparantly the same one I'm playing, must be different to your EVE Online. I have been in null for months now and I think have seen 1 Tempest and ... yeah 1 Tempest.

Unless of course you mean battleships that are shooting red crosses, then yeah there are.. actually mostly BC shoot red crosses...

All I see around Fade, Pure Blind are cruisers, inties, hacs and T3's.

The reason...

Lets compare:

Megathron 1600 Plated Blaster T2 vs Proteus 1600 Plated Blaster T2

DPS M - 1000dps Proteus - 845 dps M: Theoretically wins +165 on paper but likely equal or less due to tracking, sig issues
EHP M - 122k Proteus - 138K P: Wins
Align M - 10.8 Proteus - 7.8 P: Wins + 3 seconds
Sig: M - 380 P - 168 P: Wins but more than 100% lower sig
Speed M 969m/s P 0 1268 m/s P: wins by 300 m/s
Warp Speed M 2 au ps P - 3 au P: wins by 1 au p/s
Targetting Range M 90km P 109km P: wins by 19km
Sensor Strength: M 25 P 39 P: wins by 18 sensor strength or almost double
Drone Bay - M 75 (75 bw) P 75 (50 bw) M: wins as it can deploy an extra 25 bandwidth

Looking at that you can clearly see that the Proteus is actually the battleship and the Mega is well, shite.. And the mega is one of the better battleships, although the Prot is one of the better T3's.

You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's, 3 of those cost more than 3 T3 subs (T3 subs 60 mill, T2 Trimarks 80 mill). When you fit out both ships they come out to about equal cost if fitting T2.


I don't think you know how to fit Gallente.

Really because both those ships were fit with Nuetrons, with Void, 3 Magstabs, EANM's, 1 Active Exp Hardner each, 1600 Plate (mega had a damage control) and a MWD, with Trimarks...

Please elaborate on your superior fitting?


They both have extremely low EHP's. Megathron should have at the minimum 3 T3 1600's.

[Megathron, Alexus Megathron]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Void L x3000
Null L x2000
Navy Cap Booster 800 x22

That there is a battle tested and proven solo/small gang ship. Fitting an explosive hardener is situational and, in my opinion, outweighed by the third plate. It's ideal for lowsec stuff. Send in the brick tanked Vexor's first to get heavy tackle, and then drop the hammer with Megathrons or 'Phoons.

And if you want to use T2 Trimarks on a T1 Mega, just get a Navythron. It will get far, far, tankier for the same cost 100 mill more than a T2 rigged Mega.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-11-28 18:39:39 UTC
Oh I forgot to add one very important thing,

Cap - M 1:20 P 9:40 - Proteus wins by 800%

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-11-28 18:40:48 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Morrow Disca wrote:
Nothing but BS and T3's in 0.0 mate, what game are you playing? Shocked

Yeah apparantly the same one I'm playing, must be different to your EVE Online. I have been in null for months now and I think have seen 1 Tempest and ... yeah 1 Tempest.

Unless of course you mean battleships that are shooting red crosses, then yeah there are.. actually mostly BC shoot red crosses...

All I see around Fade, Pure Blind are cruisers, inties, hacs and T3's.

The reason...

Lets compare:

Megathron 1600 Plated Blaster T2 vs Proteus 1600 Plated Blaster T2

DPS M - 1000dps Proteus - 845 dps M: Theoretically wins +165 on paper but likely equal or less due to tracking, sig issues
EHP M - 122k Proteus - 138K P: Wins
Align M - 10.8 Proteus - 7.8 P: Wins + 3 seconds
Sig: M - 380 P - 168 P: Wins but more than 100% lower sig
Speed M 969m/s P 0 1268 m/s P: wins by 300 m/s
Warp Speed M 2 au ps P - 3 au P: wins by 1 au p/s
Targetting Range M 90km P 109km P: wins by 19km
Sensor Strength: M 25 P 39 P: wins by 18 sensor strength or almost double
Drone Bay - M 75 (75 bw) P 75 (50 bw) M: wins as it can deploy an extra 25 bandwidth

Looking at that you can clearly see that the Proteus is actually the battleship and the Mega is well, shite.. And the mega is one of the better battleships, although the Prot is one of the better T3's.

You are probably thinking but wait, the Proteus is way more than the Megathron right?

Wrong - to fit the mega out to have anywhere near as close a tank as a Proteus you have to fit Trimark II's, 3 of those cost more than 3 T3 subs (T3 subs 60 mill, T2 Trimarks 80 mill). When you fit out both ships they come out to about equal cost if fitting T2.


I don't think you know how to fit Gallente.

Really because both those ships were fit with Nuetrons, with Void, 3 Magstabs, EANM's, 1 Active Exp Hardner each, 1600 Plate (mega had a damage control) and a MWD, with Trimarks...

Please elaborate on your superior fitting?


They both have extremely low EHP's. Megathron should have at the minimum 3 T3 1600's.

[Megathron, Alexus Megathron]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Void L x3000
Null L x2000
Navy Cap Booster 800 x22

That there is a battle tested and proven solo/small gang ship. Fitting an explosive hardener is situational and, in my opinion, outweighed by the third plate. It's ideal for lowsec stuff. Send in the brick tanked Vexor's first to get heavy tackle, and then drop the hammer with Megathrons or 'Phoons.

And if you want to use T2 Trimarks on a T1 Mega, just get a Navythron. It will get far, far, far tankier for the same cost as a T2 rigged Mega.

Lol this is by far the worst mega fitting I have ever seen :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-11-28 18:44:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol this is by far the worst mega fitting I have ever seen :)


Explain how I can go toe-to-toe with VIndicators and win until they pull out Archon reps, and everyone disengages?

^^ Experience


Infinity Ziona wrote:
Oh I forgot to add one very important thing,

Cap - M 1:20 P 9:40 - Proteus wins by 800%


You don't run your MWD constantly.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#36 - 2013-11-28 18:47:08 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The only problem with battleships is that not enough people properly train and fly Rattlesnakes (king of small gang warfare).

Mr Epeen Cool


Would you care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious as to why, and what fits are common. I usually fly Minmatar BS and I find myself pulling them out of the hanger only when a structure needs to die or something. In my area (lowsec) T1 BC's, T2 cruisers and T3's are also the more dominant ship types. I love to fly BS but find myself lacking oppurtunities to play into their strengths.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-11-28 18:56:01 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol this is by far the worst mega fitting I have ever seen :)


Explain how I can go toe-to-toe with VIndicators and win until they pull out Archon reps, and everyone disengages?

^^ Experience


Infinity Ziona wrote:
Oh I forgot to add one very important thing,

Cap - M 1:20 P 9:40 - Proteus wins by 800%


You don't run your MWD constantly.

A comparison only works if you compare two ships together. Adding extraneous parameters like Vindicators, Archon reps or whatever other crap you won't to add is a waste of time.

You do not run a battleship without a heavy neut. If you do you're an idiot.

Also comparing fleet battles as some sort of litmus test to the good or bad qualities of a ship is stupid. In a fleet battle I could fly an ibis and go toe to toe with a Vindicator and win. The fact that I have a fleet behind me of disparate ships and pilots with disparate skills vs a fleet of disparate ships and pilots with disparate skills makes any logical analysis useless.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2013-11-28 18:58:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No not wrong. Those stats are real and both the Mega and Proteus were fit with the exact same fittings.
So you weren't fitting the Mega properly then? After all, if they're the exact same fittings, you're not filling up the slots available and you're using medium turrets. Blink

I suppose that explains the low DPS on the thing…

You also seem to be skipping out the important point of damage application. The Mega will happily do its 1300 DPS out beyond 10km; at that range, the Proteus is down to just its drones. Alternatively, it can venture into web/scram range and have a speed of about 90m/s…

Quote:
Really because both those ships were fit with Nuetrons, with Void, 3 Magstabs, EANM's, 1 Active Exp Hardner each, 1600 Plate (mega had a damage control) and a MWD, with Trimarks...
Ok. That gives the Proteus 115k EHP and the Mega 120k.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-11-28 18:58:50 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol this is by far the worst mega fitting I have ever seen :)


Explain how I can go toe-to-toe with VIndicators and win until they pull out Archon reps, and everyone disengages?

^^ Experience


Infinity Ziona wrote:
Oh I forgot to add one very important thing,

Cap - M 1:20 P 9:40 - Proteus wins by 800%


You don't run your MWD constantly.

You do not run a battleship without a heavy neut. If you do you're an idiot.


Megathron only has 7 highs and 7 guns... If you run a heavy neut, you're doing it wrong. Get a Typhoon.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-11-28 19:02:47 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol this is by far the worst mega fitting I have ever seen :)


Explain how I can go toe-to-toe with VIndicators and win until they pull out Archon reps, and everyone disengages?

^^ Experience


Infinity Ziona wrote:
Oh I forgot to add one very important thing,

Cap - M 1:20 P 9:40 - Proteus wins by 800%


You don't run your MWD constantly.

You do not run a battleship without a heavy neut. If you do you're an idiot.


Megathron only has 7 highs and 7 guns... If you run a heavy neut, you're doing it wrong. Get a Typhoon.

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)