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Battleships???
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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#221 - 2013-12-04 14:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You really don't have a clue do you :) As I said a megathron with 2 sebo with scripts only gets 30mm more scan res than an unseboed BC.

A bc with one sebo with script gets better scan res than a cruiser.

Since a mega needs a prop mod and a scram and web to be effective as a blaster boat fitting 3 sebos to get the same scan as a single sebo bc is a little bit much to ask. It only has 4 mids.


3 sebos IS too much to ask, which is why you use a Cruiser or Battlecruiser if you want better scan res. OR, you fly your BS.... bring a friend/alt with a cruiser or BC...Because battleships aren't meant to be out there solo. You 'can' solo, but you should not expect CCP to change the ships just so you can solo better, because if they do that, there is no reason for battlecruisers.

Requiring support for battleships was the whole entire reason for CCP introducing the math intensive turret tracking scheme it has now. Because before that they were the original solopwnmobiles. You are not meant to get around a battleships restrictions, you're supposed to learn how to live with them. You'd understand this if your worldview was less selfish and shortsighted.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#222 - 2013-12-04 15:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Subcapitals should all be viable for solo and small gang, otherwise they'd be capital ships.

Turret tracking does not need to change, it follows a logical progression. What needs to change is to give battleships something to balance their drawbacks- not remove them.

I'd like to see their sensors improved, scan res to a level where they can at least try to initiate combat against cruisers, and make them more resilient against damps and ECM. In addition to this I'd either add one slot to every hull, or give them +1 warp strength. MJD was a good move to the right direction, but it also highlights the issue which is that slow, high EHP ship will almost always face multiple enemies at once, so improving their chances in PvPPP feels reasonable.

.
Vardec Crom
Close Encounters of the EVE Kind
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2013-12-04 15:25:35 UTC
Anton LeTit wrote:
Have battleships become obsolete? Apart from pve I dont see them get frontlined that often. And now that the patch was introduced, some of the more expensive vessels will be rendered useless...

Personally, I can fly all battleships, and so far I lost every fight. 2 months back, was using a nanopest with great effect, now I cant hit jack ****... Used a domi or geddon for low sec, now Im getting creamed by stuff which people did not even use for pvp.... :)

Mallers were great tanks, but now they can also deliver pain.... Vexors were used for mining and lvl 2 missions, now they rip other stuff to shreds... Caldari are crap as always...

Did I miss something?


Battleships have been the doctrine of choice for awhile now, ever since the decline of the Tengu and the Loki and the emergence of drone assist. Go to 0.0 and you'll find virtually nothing but Domi's, Rokhs, Megas, Apocs, etc. The battleship is anything but obsolete in fleet combat. Solo is another story, and it's always been sort of a black pit of balance, not really anything new.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#224 - 2013-12-04 15:30:48 UTC
Roime wrote:
Subcapitals should all be viable for solo and small gang, otherwise they'd be capital ships.

Turret tracking does not need to change, it follows a logical progression. What needs to change is to give battleships something to balance their drawbacks- not remove them.

I'd like to see their sensors improved, scan res to a level where they can at least try to initiate combat against cruisers, and make them more resilient against damps and ECM. In addition to this I'd either add one slot to every hull, or give them +1 warp strength. MJD was a good move to the right direction, but it also highlights the issue which is that slow, high EHP ship will almost always face multiple enemies at once, so improving their chances in PvPPP feels reasonable.


So logi ships should be able to solo?

There is a large pool of battleships with a large range of roles. Some BS are best used with support while others can solo well.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#225 - 2013-12-04 15:39:16 UTC
Well lol, let's define subcaps in this context as combat ships of the offensive variety.

I disagree about battleships having a large range of roles. There is only one support battleship, the Scorpion, all others are simply damage dealers differentiated only by their weapon system and tank type. They all share the basic weaknesses.

.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#226 - 2013-12-04 16:05:26 UTC
Roime wrote:
Well lol, let's define subcaps in this context as combat ships of the offensive variety.

I disagree about battleships having a large range of roles. There is only one support battleship, the Scorpion, all others are simply damage dealers differentiated only by their weapon system and tank type. They all share the basic weaknesses.


Geddon is a neutboat with drones.

Raven and phoon are the better cruiser killers.

Hyperion is a great solo/small gang boat with its reps and drone options.

Every battleship is different.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#227 - 2013-12-06 06:39:05 UTC
Welp, I guess those two bluffs were just bluffs.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2013-12-06 06:41:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Welp, I guess those two bluffs were just bluffs.

Was that directed at me because I have no idea what you're on about.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2013-12-06 06:54:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You really don't have a clue do you :) As I said a megathron with 2 sebo with scripts only gets 30mm more scan res than an unseboed BC.

A bc with one sebo with script gets better scan res than a cruiser.

Since a mega needs a prop mod and a scram and web to be effective as a blaster boat fitting 3 sebos to get the same scan as a single sebo bc is a little bit much to ask. It only has 4 mids.


3 sebos IS too much to ask, which is why you use a Cruiser or Battlecruiser if you want better scan res. OR, you fly your BS.... bring a friend/alt with a cruiser or BC...Because battleships aren't meant to be out there solo. You 'can' solo, but you should not expect CCP to change the ships just so you can solo better, because if they do that, there is no reason for battlecruisers.

Requiring support for battleships was the whole entire reason for CCP introducing the math intensive turret tracking scheme it has now. Because before that they were the original solopwnmobiles. You are not meant to get around a battleships restrictions, you're supposed to learn how to live with them. You'd understand this if your worldview was less selfish and shortsighted.

Do you have some proof of this "entire reason", perhaps a dev post? I personally don't recall battleships ever being solopwnmobiles at least between 2003 and today.

In fact battleships have largely remained the same, Whats changed is new ships and buffs / skills which have made the battleship obsolete.

It was never designed as a fleet only ship, as opposed to fleet only ships like Logis and EAS.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#230 - 2013-12-06 06:55:45 UTC
Roime wrote:
In addition to this I'd either add one slot to every hull, or give them +1 warp strength. MJD was a good move to the right direction...*snip*

It's interesting that if you fit MJD, for some practical intents and purposes you have +1 warp strenght. Kinda.

I'd argue against flat +1 warp strenght though. This means that small scale combat (since we are talking about solo or possibly small gang involved) with BS participating will be happening within scram range, and not all BSs are great at that range, while those that are, they are already pretty damn popular, if not always for solo. Basically, that means less room for hull and fitting options if you intend to fight BS (even if you are in BS yourself).
Also that will mean that it'll be rather hard to light tackle the thing if it has utility slots.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2013-12-06 07:18:02 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Roime wrote:
In addition to this I'd either add one slot to every hull, or give them +1 warp strength. MJD was a good move to the right direction...*snip*

It's interesting that if you fit MJD, for some practical intents and purposes you have +1 warp strenght. Kinda.

I'd argue against flat +1 warp strenght though. This means that small scale combat (since we are talking about solo or possibly small gang involved) with BS participating will be happening within scram range, and not all BSs are great at that range, while those that are, they are already pretty damn popular, if not always for solo. Basically, that means less room for hull and fitting options if you intend to fight BS (even if you are in BS yourself).
Also that will mean that it'll be rather hard to light tackle the thing if it has utility slots.

They just need better scan res, in line with other ships. You fit a cruiser with a sebo you get Dessie lock, fit a BC with a sebo you get cruiser lock, fit a battleship with a sebo you get... Less than BC lock, fit a battleship with 2 sebo you get less than BC lock... It's stupid. No logical reason for it.

I think instead of sebos giving a percentage and cloaks taking a percentage it would be better for sebo to add a fixed amount of scan res and cloaks to no affect scan res.

Cruiser with no sebo 350, cruiser with sebo 550
BC with no sebo 250, BC with sebo 450
BS with no sebo 118, BS sebo 318

Cruiser with no cloak 350, Cruiser with cloak 350 - recal
BC with no cloak 250, BC with cloak 250 - recal
And so on

With a average 10 second recal wtf do they get scan res penalty.

We're looking at lock delays of a minute with BS it's not logical.

I think what BS needs is a variation of a jump drive allowing it to make one system jumps to its gang members and using fuel like a regular jump drive. Just not as much.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#232 - 2013-12-06 13:49:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Welp, I guess those two bluffs were just bluffs.

Was that directed at me because I have no idea what you're on about.



Still waiting on that km and kronos.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#233 - 2013-12-06 13:55:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You really don't have a clue do you :) As I said a megathron with 2 sebo with scripts only gets 30mm more scan res than an unseboed BC.

A bc with one sebo with script gets better scan res than a cruiser.

Since a mega needs a prop mod and a scram and web to be effective as a blaster boat fitting 3 sebos to get the same scan as a single sebo bc is a little bit much to ask. It only has 4 mids.


3 sebos IS too much to ask, which is why you use a Cruiser or Battlecruiser if you want better scan res. OR, you fly your BS.... bring a friend/alt with a cruiser or BC...Because battleships aren't meant to be out there solo. You 'can' solo, but you should not expect CCP to change the ships just so you can solo better, because if they do that, there is no reason for battlecruisers.

Requiring support for battleships was the whole entire reason for CCP introducing the math intensive turret tracking scheme it has now. Because before that they were the original solopwnmobiles. You are not meant to get around a battleships restrictions, you're supposed to learn how to live with them. You'd understand this if your worldview was less selfish and shortsighted.

Do you have some proof of this "entire reason", perhaps a dev post? I personally don't recall battleships ever being solopwnmobiles at least between 2003 and today.

In fact battleships have largely remained the same, Whats changed is new ships and buffs / skills which have made the battleship obsolete.

It was never designed as a fleet only ship, as opposed to fleet only ships like Logis and EAS.


Geddons used to go full heatsinks and could perfectly hit any frigate at any range.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2013-12-07 00:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You really don't have a clue do you :) As I said a megathron with 2 sebo with scripts only gets 30mm more scan res than an unseboed BC.

A bc with one sebo with script gets better scan res than a cruiser.

Since a mega needs a prop mod and a scram and web to be effective as a blaster boat fitting 3 sebos to get the same scan as a single sebo bc is a little bit much to ask. It only has 4 mids.


3 sebos IS too much to ask, which is why you use a Cruiser or Battlecruiser if you want better scan res. OR, you fly your BS.... bring a friend/alt with a cruiser or BC...Because battleships aren't meant to be out there solo. You 'can' solo, but you should not expect CCP to change the ships just so you can solo better, because if they do that, there is no reason for battlecruisers.

Requiring support for battleships was the whole entire reason for CCP introducing the math intensive turret tracking scheme it has now. Because before that they were the original solopwnmobiles. You are not meant to get around a battleships restrictions, you're supposed to learn how to live with them. You'd understand this if your worldview was less selfish and shortsighted.

Do you have some proof of this "entire reason", perhaps a dev post? I personally don't recall battleships ever being solopwnmobiles at least between 2003 and today.

In fact battleships have largely remained the same, Whats changed is new ships and buffs / skills which have made the battleship obsolete.

It was never designed as a fleet only ship, as opposed to fleet only ships like Logis and EAS.


Geddons used to go full heatsinks and could perfectly hit any frigate at any range.

The heat sink issue had nothing to do with Geddons or Battleships in general. For a short period after release there were no stacking penalties. This meant you could fill lows with damage mods and also get close to 99% resist stacking hardners or perfect tracking with multiple tracking mods.

Even after the tracking nerf to large guns we still had the ability to solo in battleships. In fact for years after that we had great battleship soloers emerge because it was still viable to solo in them.

As for your ship I offered you a mega. Your ship fit was not in a kill mail, google Baltec megathron fit.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
J'mee Leggs
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2013-12-07 01:55:19 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:



Disposable, insurable, don't lose skill points are not ship attributes ffs.


Yes actually, they are.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2013-12-07 03:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
J'mee Leggs wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:



Disposable, insurable, don't lose skill points are not ship attributes ffs.


Yes actually, they are.



No. Sucks being wrong doesn't it. I'd hardly know though in this thread.

Ship attributes are things that affect the operation of the ship. Base resists, base speed, number of hardpoints...

Being disposable doesn't fit that, it affects player wallets.
Being insurable doesn't fit that, it affects player wallets.
Losing skill points on destruction doesn't fit that, it affects player skills.

They all occur and affect things out of combat, out of operational use, and after destruction and are therefore not ship attributes.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#237 - 2013-12-07 06:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:



As for your ship I offered you a mega. Your ship fit was not in a kill mail, google Baltec megathron fit.


So you are mistaking the CFC megathon fit as my personal fit and are mistaking the empty slot as meaning no prop mod when infact it is left empty as we fit them with either a mjd or a mwd. So, you were just making things up when you said that I have lost a mega with no prop mod.

As for that ship you offered, if you want me to go solo killing then I want the best mega hull suited for the job.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2013-12-07 06:30:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:



As for your ship I offered you a mega. Your ship fit was not in a kill mail, google Baltec megathron fit.


So you are mistaking the CFC megathon fit as my personal fit and are mistaking the empty slot as meaning no prop mod when infact it is left empty as we fit them with either a mjd or a mwd. So, you were just making things up when you said that I have lost a mega with no prop mod.

As for that ship you offered, if you want me to go solo killing then I want the best mega hull suited for the job.

Pirate battleship is not equal to T1 battleship. Also its got your name on it... Heres a tip for CFC, fit one prop mod and then maybe switch to another.... makes more sense than an empty slot...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-12-07 06:36:30 UTC
Page 12: Thread is still derailed!

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#240 - 2013-12-07 06:36:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Pirate battleship is not equal to T1 battleship. Also its got your name on it... Heres a tip for CFC, fit one prop mod and then maybe switch to another.... makes more sense than an empty slot...


It has my name on it due to my reputation for flying Megathrons. Incidently, the thread on the forums I am assuming you picked this up from (EVE uni) was made when mjd were not showing up on killmails so it looked like lost megathrons had an empty mid.

Also a kronos is not a pirate boat.