These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Tech 3 Frigates – The time is right
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#21 - 2013-11-29 18:48:46 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
To kill a depot before it anchors (and has a RF timer) you only need 300 DPS (292 if you want to be technical), so they aren't supremely useful in combat.


Why would you attempt to refit in the middle of combat? This is an insane argument.

Unless you literally had nothing to lose (going to die anyway) it would be stupid to even try.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was suggesting that you attempt to refit while in combat.

I mean -- What?


Right here:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's that the T3 can fulfill a hilariously large amount of roles, and recently gained the ability to swap roles undocked with a mobile depot that only has a 60s anchor time.


Undocked implies in combat, since otherwise the depot really has no effect on PVP... aside from maybe taking off a cloaky sub for a DPS sub while in hostile territory, but even then the target would see you on d-scan before you could land.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-11-29 18:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
[Undocked implies in combat,


That's ridiculous.

Being undocked does NOT mean you are in combat. If I'm in an empty system, am I "in combat?"

If I am in a system with only 1 other person in it, and they are docked, am I "in combat?"

What kind of nonsense is this?

I have used mobile depots dozens of times already, none of those times was when I was actively fighting somebody.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#23 - 2013-11-29 19:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Pinky Hops wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
[Undocked implies in combat,


That's ridiculous.

Being undocked does NOT mean you are in combat. If I'm in an empty system, am I "in combat?"

If I am in a system with only 1 other person in it, and they are docked, am I "in combat?"

What kind of nonsense is this?

I have used mobile depots dozens of times already, none of those times was when I was actively fighting somebody.



Being able to switch roles undocked isn't a huge advantage unless you're referring to in combat. Subs could be switched at a station or at a POS, so Depots aren't an advantage. Unless you're referring to combat.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-11-29 19:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
So you're saying swapping your role within a few minutes vs. flying back 20 jumps, swapping your ship, then making the return flight for another 20 jumps....Isn't an advantage?

Fascinating.

Please tell me more about how mobile depots are not an advantage.

Maybe you are in some sort of super alliance that has Sov in every single system, and a station in every single system. I am not aware of any alliance like that. Maybe yours is the first.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-11-29 19:20:35 UTC
Whoops. double =(

delete me plz.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#26 - 2013-11-29 19:24:05 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
So you're saying swapping your role within a few minutes vs. flying back 20 jumps, swapping your ship, then making the return flight for another 20 jumps....Isn't an advantage?

Fascinating.

Please tell me more about how mobile depots are not an advantage.

Maybe you are in some sort of super alliance that has Sov in every single system, and a station in every single system. I am not aware of any alliance like that. Maybe yours is the first.


You're assuming that everyone with a T3 fights 20j into hostile nullsec, not in lowsec, highsec, WH space, or NPC. Interesting...

Like I said, its not some massive advantage, it might be useful for armor cloaky T3s harassing an enemy ratting system long term to rep up armor damage, but they haven't suddenly made T3s OP.

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#27 - 2013-11-29 20:28:49 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#28 - 2013-11-29 20:38:15 UTC
t3 battle cruiser, which will be the step up form t3 cruiser after they have been "Balanced" in the near future.
would also co-inside with booster changes too i think and also give battle cruisers a new ship as they are still the ones with the lowest amount of ships at the moment.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#29 - 2013-11-29 20:39:55 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.


idk is there was some sp loss it would have to be in line like instead of subsystem skill change the skills so they are hull based like cruiser subsystems, frigate subsystems, battle-cruiser subsystems. that way the sp can scale accordingly

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#30 - 2013-11-29 20:53:57 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.


idk is there was some sp loss it would have to be in line like instead of subsystem skill change the skills so they are hull based like cruiser subsystems, frigate subsystems, battle-cruiser subsystems. that way the sp can scale accordingly


With their stated intentions of bringing T3 ships in line with other ships of the same size, I think SP loss just needs to be killed. It's really the only way T3 cruiser use doesn't completely plummet when the OP T3 builds get nerfed (these are the only T3s that are generally used after all).
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#31 - 2013-11-29 21:00:43 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.


idk is there was some sp loss it would have to be in line like instead of subsystem skill change the skills so they are hull based like cruiser subsystems, frigate subsystems, battle-cruiser subsystems. that way the sp can scale accordingly


With their stated intentions of bringing T3 ships in line with other ships of the same size, I think SP loss just needs to be killed. It's really the only way T3 cruiser use doesn't completely plummet when the OP T3 builds get nerfed (these are the only T3s that are generally used after all).


You seem to think CCP is going to make all T3s useless.

They'll probably reduce the tank of hte Legion and Proteus a bit, and then they'll buff the the 75% of the T3 subs that nobody uses.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-11-29 21:01:29 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.


idk is there was some sp loss it would have to be in line like instead of subsystem skill change the skills so they are hull based like cruiser subsystems, frigate subsystems, battle-cruiser subsystems. that way the sp can scale accordingly


With their stated intentions of bringing T3 ships in line with other ships of the same size, I think SP loss just needs to be killed. It's really the only way T3 cruiser use doesn't completely plummet when the OP T3 builds get nerfed (these are the only T3s that are generally used after all).


I don't think that the SP loss needs to be killed if the training time for T3 frigate skills is short enough to warrant their use in PvP. That said, I don't think that T3 frigates are a good idea. AF are already borderline substitutes for destroyers, so I think a T3 frigate would completely undermine that class of ship. It's hard with T3s. We're currently in the position where any T3 implemented that is bigger then a cruiser would be hilariously OP (people already use T3 cruisers to replace using a battleship, myself included), and anything smaller runs a risk of invalidating any of the many roles that we have small ships for. That said, I may be able to get behind a T3 destroyer that offers a bit more utility without overshadowing cruisers (although it could be argued that with the current state of RLMLs that a T3 destroyer would remove any purpose a cruiser could have hunting frigates, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your point of view), but I wouldn't support a T3 frigate.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#33 - 2013-11-29 21:18:24 UTC
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3 frigates: meh. Too much of an SP loss for what should be a relatively squishy ship.


Which brings us back to the point I brought up earlier. The only way T3 frigates would work would be without SP loss. And personally I think that would be a good move for T3s in general in my opinion.


idk is there was some sp loss it would have to be in line like instead of subsystem skill change the skills so they are hull based like cruiser subsystems, frigate subsystems, battle-cruiser subsystems. that way the sp can scale accordingly


With their stated intentions of bringing T3 ships in line with other ships of the same size, I think SP loss just needs to be killed. It's really the only way T3 cruiser use doesn't completely plummet when the OP T3 builds get nerfed (these are the only T3s that are generally used after all).


I don't think that the SP loss needs to be killed if the training time for T3 frigate skills is short enough to warrant their use in PvP. That said, I don't think that T3 frigates are a good idea. AF are already borderline substitutes for destroyers, so I think a T3 frigate would completely undermine that class of ship. It's hard with T3s. We're currently in the position where any T3 implemented that is bigger then a cruiser would be hilariously OP (people already use T3 cruisers to replace using a battleship, myself included), and anything smaller runs a risk of invalidating any of the many roles that we have small ships for. That said, I may be able to get behind a T3 destroyer that offers a bit more utility without overshadowing cruisers (although it could be argued that with the current state of RLMLs that a T3 destroyer would remove any purpose a cruiser could have hunting frigates, which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your point of view), but I wouldn't support a T3 frigate.


Your post seems to completely ignore that CCP has pretty much stated they are going to be nerfing T3 cruisers (in particular they indicated that sub-par subsystems will probably be buffed while the subsystems that allow T3s to outperform T2 cruisers will probably be nerfed). Since they have stated that they don't want T3 cruisers to be outright better than T2 cruisers I would assume they would have the same mentality with T3 frigates. T3 frigs would be about flexibility just as T3 cruisers are supposed to be (for instance a cloaky combat frig that isn't a stealth bomber or a very tanky frig with exploration bonuses for ghost sites).

And again the SP loss really needs to be removed as T3 cruisers that aren't markedly better than T2 cruisers really aren't worthy of such a punitive mechanic,much less T3 frigates.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-11-30 11:46:50 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
So you're saying swapping your role within a few minutes vs. flying back 20 jumps, swapping your ship, then making the return flight for another 20 jumps....Isn't an advantage?

Fascinating.

Please tell me more about how mobile depots are not an advantage.

Maybe you are in some sort of super alliance that has Sov in every single system, and a station in every single system. I am not aware of any alliance like that. Maybe yours is the first.


Hell your going off track with this....t3 are the generalized ships they are meant to swap roles on the fly. And mobile depots are useful for anyone including t1 and t2 ships.
you can adjust and change your fittings on any ships if u carry the mods with you. Saying the mobile depots only give a huge advantage to tech 3 over the other is bollocks.
If u want to fly a ship that can change roles go for a t3 if u want to fly a t2 ship stick to its intended role. Asking to nerf the hell out of T3s just because yout Hac can`t change roles is bulls***.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#35 - 2013-11-30 12:14:20 UTC
if i remember it correctly (was it last fanfest?) a ccp dev said they are working on a new t3 ship but it was not battleship or frigate size.

so i suspect its gona be T3 destroyers
(cause t3 bcs would cannibalize on command ships and battle ship roles)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#36 - 2013-11-30 14:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3s are on par with or weaker than Command ships for DPS, only the Legion/Proteus could use a tank nerf (10% to 5% on buffer sub).


This, no matter the number, is how you fix T3-fleets. The combination of very poor sensors, subpar mobility and -compared to rebalanced Hacs/CS - not so outstanding damage(application) already are limiting factors - my opinion. Just, a normal proteus (official standard-fit) has around 160k-180k ehp depending on pimp, that could really well take a hit. 130k is still absurdly high.

Also, I want a T3-Frigate. Currently there are like 4 frigs worth dumping money on (mostly, the pimpcrow), needs 4 more.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-11-30 22:14:51 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

T3s are on par with or weaker than Command ships for DPS, only the Legion/Proteus could use a tank nerf (10% to 5% on buffer sub).


This, no matter the number, is how you fix T3-fleets. The combination of very poor sensors, subpar mobility and -compared to rebalanced Hacs/CS - not so outstanding damage(application) already are limiting factors - my opinion. Just, a normal proteus (official standard-fit) has around 160k-180k ehp depending on pimp, that could really well take a hit. 130k is still absurdly high.

Also, I want a T3-Frigate. Currently there are like 4 frigs worth dumping money on (mostly, the pimpcrow), needs 4 more.


Lots of ehp but slow as hell, even more expensive , can be out ranged, kited etc.

If u judge the strength of a ship just by the amount of ehp you should go play something else.
Previous page12