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The Marmite Collective Wardeccing... for a good cause ? Really ?

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Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#221 - 2013-11-28 06:13:48 UTC
It seems to me that this drive is operating in a pretty grey area and the reason this topic keeps going on and on is because everyone has a semi-valid point. If the Marmites made a condition of surrender donation of $15 dollars to the Icelandic Red Cross, that probably wouldn't be allowed. But soliciting isk in-game with the stated purpose of buying Plex, which has been guaranteed by CCP to be converted into currency, and still result in $15 being donated to the Icelandic Red Cross is perfectly acceptable.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that using RL events to extort isk in-game could be an ethical nightmare in a game where backstabbing, betrayal and general mischief are requirements for success. The problem in this particular instance is relativity. Are you attempting to force corps to donate funds to a RL charity using valid in-game mechanics or are you white knighting a relief drive by extorting and blackmailing players using valid in-game mechanics. Depending on which side of the fence you sit, the view is probably different and if the PFG drive wasn't mentioned, there would be no crisis of ethics whatsoever.

But. As someone who has endured and survived 11 hurricanes over the past 20 years, someone whose home has been destroyed 3 times since 2005, someone who knows first-hand what it's like to lose everything you own and your community be completely devastated, someone who has been busting tail all week earning isk specifically for this drive, and as someone who wants the Twitch feed on Dec. 7th to be the most amazing thing ever, with as many tattoos, shaven heads, tae-kwon-doe chops to the throat, paintballs to the groin, close-ups of harkal being devoured, and as many developer duels as possible - I say bend the rules; bend them as far as you can before they break. As long as we have CCP's guarantee that they'll monitor the situation for abuse and knowing that the activity is generating both pgc and much-needed funds for a truly desperate people, I've got no ethical dillema whatsoever.

YK
BKM Industries
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-11-28 06:35:01 UTC
YK I think you still fail to see two things in this thread.

1 Unless it is a paid dec war targets always had a buyout option.

2 Due to this being for charity they are getting a giant discount on paying to get out of it.

So the only thing that has changed is instead of ISK going into our war chest it now goes to charity. No one is being forced to spend real life money. You can make isk in game.

What is next someone will complain that there CEO made a mandatory mining op or members will be kicked and all the ore will be sold for P4G. Hmm maybe Goons will make a CTA to burn Jita and give all the loot to P4G. They will kick anyone out who does not attend.

I bet if either of the above went on and someone cryed here about it no one would care. People say this dips into real life. Well I know I have had to alarm clock a CTA before **** that effected my real life. I have been late for appointments cause the fleet is getting mad kills and I did not want to stop. People do not see how much games are tied to real life when they play them.

People have a choice to do 3 things:

1 Donate the stuff to me to pass on to P4G

2 Donate the stuff themselfs

3 Have a week long war dec

I never once told anyone they had to give real life money to anyone. I never said they had to do anything. I gave them choices.

Now CCP will have a fleet I think for this video feed they are doing. I am guessing it will be a PvP fleet. So they should not blow anyone up cause they are forcing people to be filmed to raise money for charity. This is what people are saying in this thread just in other words and directed at other people.

I am sorry about your losses Yonis Kador. I do agree with you on most stuff. Also if you need help making isk in any way shape or form let me know. Shoot for charity I will even mine ice. OMG crap that left a nasty taste in my mouth......

type something here to make a cool sig!!!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#223 - 2013-11-28 06:55:12 UTC
I readily admit that we're splitting hairs here. By removing PFG from the letter while still administering the decs and executing the funds collected in exactly the same way, there's no crisis. The only ethical dillema comes from tieing the RL event to the player initiative. I recognize that you're not requiring anyone to donate to charity. It's CCP who has guaranteed that each Plex donated (which is a potential method of surrender) will generate funds for the RL charity. All I'm saying is whether that donation is a primary contribution or a secondary contribution is hardly a notable difference if the end result is the same. Like I said, splitting hairs. But if someone wanted to push the issue, it's not as black and white as it seems. But since we've got CCP assurances that it's OK and that they're going to monitor the situation, that should satisfy any concerns people might have. All that's going on now is an intellectual circlejerk on the merits.

For my part, I applaud your initiative and I hope it generates lots of isk.

YK
BKM Industries
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-11-28 07:02:26 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:


For my part, I applaud your initiative and I hope it generates lots of isk.

YK


Thanks man I am still holding out that CCP will pay the ransom. Hmm that or maybe get a fleet and come fight us :)

GL on your isk making man.
type something here to make a cool sig!!!
William Pareka
Provi Rapid Response
#225 - 2013-11-28 08:10:23 UTC
Giving to a good cause is good. Generally (mostly really) giving is voluntary. When someone in-game say "do this" or "I'll do that" and give me plex (which can be used for real money payments: game time, in-game items etc), this becomes distasteful.

Can't tell you how many times I've been in the position of being forced to "volunteer".

You want isk for in-game shenanigans fine.

You want Plex for RL causes, fine... get me a link to the site and I'll probably donate to the related cause.

Force me to pay with Plex to someone with questionable EVE in-game mechanics and ethos for RL things... Get real

IF you war decked me. See you in 7 days, hope the isk was worth it.
Frozen Chief
Doomheim
#226 - 2013-11-28 09:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Frozen Chief
Obmud wrote:
So I log back to eve to see the marmites wardeccing left and right.

Here's the mail they sent out with the decs:

"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".

I have several problems with this...

This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, i understand when people bully others in eve just for their sheer pleasure and the harvest of tears, some (if not all) of the best stories in eve have come through the loss of someone else and they following rage and machoism is just the icing of the cake. However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

Can we PLEASE keep this separate ? How much and if i donated something to the philippines is my personal matter, i dont want to talk about it in eve, i dont even want to lay out how much i sent, it's none of your guys business and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game. (not in this case maybe, but where do you draw the line ?)

Plex for Good through CCP is fine, it's something i can choose to do freely and i think its great that ccp took action on behalf of the community. But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ?
What if they lift the dec afterwards and then dec you again but this time for other reasons ? How... i dont even... ???

I'm probably getting flamed for this but i can't make sense of it and would love to get some input from you guys.

(no, i didnt get wardecced, this is my main and he's in an npc corp, no i'm not butthurt, no eve is not dieing, no it's not my brother who used this account)
So basically:
- Screwing around with people for the sole purpose of frustrating them to the point of quitting is okay, because it's amusing for the bully.
- Screwing around with people as a fun means to get people to donate to a worthy real life cause is not okay, because...

I'm not surprised someone who thinks bullying fully grown men as fully grown men would also hold an opinion as deluded as in your post.
Serdar Tyrnx
#227 - 2013-11-28 09:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Serdar Tyrnx
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

So if it was a valid game mechanic and was not used for raising ISK for a good cause, CCP would then intervene?

CCP Falcon, while you generally make epic posts, that was poorly constructed ;)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#228 - 2013-11-28 10:05:38 UTC
"Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic."

This seems pretty straightforward. There's no "good causes" clause.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#229 - 2013-11-28 10:12:06 UTC
That this is a bit controversial is because they are touching an area where real life and the game overlap, so it may be considered a grey area. But as long as it's good for publicity, CCP will allow it, even if it were light black instead of light grey.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#230 - 2013-11-28 11:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Obmud
Malcanis wrote:
"Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic."

This seems pretty straightforward. There's no "good causes" clause.


So you're telling me that it doesnt matter wether it has real life consequences (that NOONE would agree on that it's allowed), is bound to (not in this case) questionable material (of certain political views). How do you people not see that such absolutist statements are simply bogus, no offense ?
I agree when it comes down to game mechanics (unless its an exploit). But you can't just stretch it beyond that like "its ALWAYS allowed" it's simply not true. And it's the very reason why we discuss stuff like this, i accept when people don't agree with me on the point of the matter, but it doesnt get in my head how you can make absolute statements like this. There's always the case as we seen countless time's that is trying to bend and exploit such stuff.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Nuglord
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2013-11-28 11:26:13 UTC
Quote:
However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

There is no connection between the in game actions of a made up entity that blows up not real stuff and real life.

Quote:
Can we PLEASE keep this separate ?... and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

The ransom is theirs to decide. A PLEX is not a ridiculous asking price. Would it make you feel better if Marmite would ask for 600m, and then for every surrender they buy a PLEX and donate to PLEX for good? It's the same thing, without the middle man. Additionally, nobody is forcing anyone to pay a ransom for war surrender.

Quote:
I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game.

Personal experiences aside, I don't believe CCP is scheming to pull the wool over your eyes with this campaign. It's a charity event. While discussing the merits of the charity is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, again nobody is forcing you to donate to the campaign, and in fact, if you don't like how the campaign is run, the best thing to do would probably be to either not donate at all or donate to a charity that more appropriately fits your preferences.

Quote:
But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ?

People have done much worse in this game. If they donate even one PLEX to the campaign it would likely be worthwhile as literally nothing in Eve actually matters in real life, while the campaign is donating to an actual charity.
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2013-11-28 11:31:31 UTC
Nuglord wrote:
Quote:
However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

There is no connection between the in game actions of a made up entity that blows up not real stuff and real life.

Quote:
Can we PLEASE keep this separate ?... and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

The ransom is theirs to decide. A PLEX is not a ridiculous asking price. Would it make you feel better if Marmite would ask for 600m, and then for every surrender they buy a PLEX and donate to PLEX for good? It's the same thing, without the middle man. Additionally, nobody is forcing anyone to pay a ransom for war surrender.

Quote:
I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game.

Personal experiences aside, I don't believe CCP is scheming to pull the wool over your eyes with this campaign. It's a charity event. While discussing the merits of the charity is certainly a worthwhile endeavor, again nobody is forcing you to donate to the campaign, and in fact, if you don't like how the campaign is run, the best thing to do would probably be to either not donate at all or donate to a charity that more appropriately fits your preferences.

Quote:
But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ?

People have done much worse in this game. If they donate even one PLEX to the campaign it would likely be worthwhile as literally nothing in Eve actually matters in real life, while the campaign is donating to an actual charity.



It's clear that I either am not capable of articulating what i mean or you simply didnt read and understand what i wrote.

1. CCP is not the issue here, i wrote specifically that i'm FINE with their charity plex campaign.

2. YES, it would be better if they scheme people out of money and then donate instead of scapegoating it on the others. That is EXACTLY what they should have done. More ISK in the end anyways as they put it. Last time i checked wardecs also cost money.

3. People have done worse ? Is that the justification for everything today ? Eh i stole that guy's phone, there are people out there killing others so who cares. The lesser of 2 evils is still evil. (I'm not implying that they are evil, but hopefully you get my analogy)

4. "There is no connection between the in game actions of a made up entity that blows up not real stuff and real life." I didnt even understand that sentence.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#233 - 2013-11-28 11:34:26 UTC
Obmud wrote:
1. CCP is not the issue here, i wrote specifically that i'm FINE with their charity plex campaign.


And CCP has specifically stated that they are fine with Marmite's contribution to that through violence, intimidation, and extortion.

So what are you still talking about?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2013-11-28 11:39:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Obmud wrote:
1. CCP is not the issue here, i wrote specifically that i'm FINE with their charity plex campaign.


And CCP has specifically stated that they are fine with Marmite's contribution to that through violence, intimidation, and extortion.

So what are you still talking about?


It's called opinion. The exchange is a so called discussion.

This where you wrote is a forum.

Forum stands for a place where people meet and discuss stuff. I wasn't aware that we are not able to discuss stuff that CCP allows.

I apologize once again for vocalizing a thought and a question.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2013-11-28 11:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Obmud wrote:
So I log back to eve to see the marmites wardeccing left and right.

Here's the mail they sent out with the decs:

"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".

I have several problems with this...

This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, i understand when people bully others in eve just for their sheer pleasure and the harvest of tears, some (if not all) of the best stories in eve have come through the loss of someone else and they following rage and machoism is just the icing of the cake. However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

Can we PLEASE keep this separate ? How much and if i donated something to the philippines is my personal matter, i dont want to talk about it in eve, i dont even want to lay out how much i sent, it's none of your guys business and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game. (not in this case maybe, but where do you draw the line ?)

Plex for Good through CCP is fine, it's something i can choose to do freely and i think its great that ccp took action on behalf of the community. But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ?
What if they lift the dec afterwards and then dec you again but this time for other reasons ? How... i dont even... ???

I'm probably getting flamed for this but i can't make sense of it and would love to get some input from you guys.

(no, i didnt get wardecced, this is my main and he's in an npc corp, no i'm not butthurt, no eve is not dieing, no it's not my brother who used this account)

You don't have to pay. Ever think of that?

I may look into joining these guys. It sounds like a lot of fun for a good cause.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#236 - 2013-11-28 11:45:45 UTC
Obmud wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Obmud wrote:
1. CCP is not the issue here, i wrote specifically that i'm FINE with their charity plex campaign.


And CCP has specifically stated that they are fine with Marmite's contribution to that through violence, intimidation, and extortion.

So what are you still talking about?


It's called opinion. The exchange is a so called discussion.

This where you wrote is a forum.

Forum stands for a place where people meet and discuss stuff. I wasn't aware that we are not able to discuss stuff that CCP allows.

I apologize once again for vocalizing a thought and a question.


Heh, nice try.

Thing is, you raised what you thought was an issue. Presumably trying to get Marmite in trouble by doing so.

Then, CCP Falcon hopped on here and said outright, that it's not an issue for them, and that CCP fully condones their actions.

Any continuation is really just you swimming in circles.

You already vocalized your thought, and had your question answered. That's it, done.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#237 - 2013-11-28 11:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Hmm.. what if I make a character PLEX for Evil and proclaim that I perform a dark prayer to satan for every PLEX contracted to this character. (a RL prayer)
Now a wardec corps offers you terms of surrender.. contract a PLEX to "PLEX for Hell".

How is that any different, in effect?
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-11-28 11:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Obmud
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Heh, nice try.


Your attitude towards such a serious topic is duly noted.


Quote:
Thing is, you raised what you thought was an issue.


Correct


Quote:
Presumably trying to get Marmite in trouble by doing so.


Yeah exaclty, because i had so much trouble with them during eve. Check my corp history the last time i was active in FW we had 0 interaction with them and before that i can't remember even hearing about them. And viziam is in an everlasting battle with the marmite because... oh yeah right. It's laughable i'm even replying to this, i don't give a crap from who this comes even if it was from my best friends, i got problems with the action not the message deliverer. Something alot of people in this topic clearly fail to distinguish, stupid personal attacks seem to be more fashionable than staying on topic.

On the contrary, your comment shows that if this isnt the case (which it isnt) you admit to having no ground in your whole argument. Thanks for that, i personally know the truth wether i would indeed have a problem with the marmites.


Quote:
Then, CCP Falcon hopped on here and said outright, that it's not an issue for them, and that CCP fully condones their actions


Hooray! We established that they think it's okay. No problem with that, i still don't agree. For some people what CCP thinks is not god's word. I'm still allowed to speak up, last time i checked this was an open forum.


Quote:
Any continuation is really just you swimming in circles.


While replying to your "ohiveseenitallboy" comments that might indeed be the case.



Quote:
You already vocalized your thought, and had your question answered. That's it, done.


Unfortunately, as long as someone is saying something on the subject it's not. Last time i checked when a law is decided in a country people dont magically vanish of the oposing opinion.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
CCP Falcon
#239 - 2013-11-28 11:59:46 UTC
Serdar Tyrnx wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

So if it was a valid game mechanic and was not used for raising ISK for a good cause, CCP would then intervene?

CCP Falcon, while you generally make epic posts, that was poorly constructed ;)


And in reflection, you seem to be quite on a roll with making bad posts.

CCP Falcon wrote:
Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.


There are no grey areas here.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#240 - 2013-11-28 12:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
I think it's legendary. Good for them.

Grey areas? Pfff...

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf