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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2013-12-06 20:23:02 UTC
WTB Honorable 1v1 frigate combat at the sun with the immeasurably OP daredevil, scourge of New Eden.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#622 - 2013-12-06 20:24:03 UTC
Don't be surprised if you see an unannounced change implemented a week before the next Rubicon update...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#623 - 2013-12-06 20:24:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.



100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator

That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here.



Well, unless I did the math wrong it is not true. After about the 8th web your effective speed is zero (assuming your normal speed is 100km/s)...irrespective of the whether it is a 60% speed reduction or a 90% speed reduction. With the Vindicator it is the 6th web that will get you, effectively to zero.

Even an interceptor is in trouble with 8 60% webs--i.e. he isn't going anywhere.


Yes, you did the math wrong.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#624 - 2013-12-06 20:32:44 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
1. The Curse is one of the most overrated ships around. It has some neat bonuses but its nowhere near overpowered.

2. Web range bonuses should be nerfed too, i just don't hate them as much as 90% webs.

3. ewar t3's need some heavy rebalance yes.

4. ECM is a ****** system.

Pointing out that something is stupidly designed isn't a very good argument to keep something else stupid.

1. Curse is still a very powerfull ship. It's even more powerfull than the Vindicator as the Vindicator can only slows you ship down.

2. Just admit it that you want webs removed so you can feel safe in your frig / cruiser when going close range to any ships.

3. Nah, the ewar on the T3's are fine. However, some T3's would need some tank nerfing.

4. ECM is the first thing CCP should considering to change and rebalance when it's about ewar.


I like this numbering system.

1. no
2. no, i do think webs are the most powerful ewar second only to points however, could use a minor change.
3. yes, thats why i said ewar t3's, not the ewar on t3's. The main problem with them is the apeshit crazy tank. same as the vindi (I don't actually have much of a problem with 90% webs on cruisers/frigs. I think they should be 80% at most but yea, don't really mind)
4. It just needs to be completely revamped, its not just imbalanced, its also simply a non-fun mechanic

And Teckos Pech, you are quite bad at math.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#625 - 2013-12-06 20:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Michael Harari wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.



100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator

That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here.



Well, unless I did the math wrong it is not true. After about the 8th web your effective speed is zero (assuming your normal speed is 100km/s)...irrespective of the whether it is a 60% speed reduction or a 90% speed reduction. With the Vindicator it is the 6th web that will get you, effectively to zero.

Even an interceptor is in trouble with 8 60% webs--i.e. he isn't going anywhere.


Yes, you did the math wrong.


Really, show your work then.

Here is mine, if a bit messy:

Number of Webs + 1 Modifier Base Speed Adjustment Modified Speed Adjustment Base Speed 1200 KM
0 1 0.4 0.4 480
1 0.869119981 0.4 0.347647992 166.871036314
2 0.570583144 0.4 0.228233257 38.085520184
3 0.282955154 0.4 0.113182062 4.310597692
4 0.10599265 0.4 0.04239706 0.1827566685
5 0.029991167 0.4 0.011996467 0.0021924343
6 0.006410183 0.4 0.002564073 0.0000056216
7 0.00103492 0.4 0.000413968 0.0000000023
8 0.000126213 0.4 5.04851E-05 0.0000000000

One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#626 - 2013-12-06 20:42:15 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

4. It just needs to be completely revamped, its not just imbalanced, its also simply a non-fun mechanic


Next thing you know CCP will add the terrible data/relic site hacking mechanic to jamming.

Not today spaghetti.
Naomi Anthar
#627 - 2013-12-06 20:42:18 UTC
... i'm evil ... i mean Suddenly defends this bonus so desperately. That ... the evil part of my personality smiles whenever i think they could remove this bonus.

The amount of tears shed, already even before change is even presented on forums in official topic is enormous.

God only knows how mad they would be if that change would go through.

And i don't hate that alliance. No reason. But that would be funny ;))).



The biggest problem i have with Suddenly arguments is that they compare Vindi to ... T2 specialized cruiser for example. What kind of sick and stupid comparison is this ? You need compare it to other battleships especially faction, most notably other pirate battleships. Where everyone agress that Vindi got upper hand. And if he does not agree he is probably from certain low sec alliance.

I'm all in favour of pirate ships having unique bonuses. But if it is really strong as in this case ... who knows maybe we need other one ?

For now i will just cheer, reading how Vindi and other serpentis are underpowered. After all reading only serious posts is boring. Some trolling and comedy is always welcome.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#628 - 2013-12-06 20:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:

Really, show your work then.

Here is mine, if a bit messy:

Number of Webs + 1 Modifier Base Speed Adjustment Modified Speed Adjustment Base Speed 1200 KM
0 1 0.4 0.4 480
1 0.869119981 0.4 0.347647992 166.871036314
2 0.570583144 0.4 0.228233257 38.085520184
3 0.282955154 0.4 0.113182062 4.310597692
4 0.10599265 0.4 0.04239706 0.1827566685
5 0.029991167 0.4 0.011996467 0.0021924343
6 0.006410183 0.4 0.002564073 0.0000056216
7 0.00103492 0.4 0.000413968 0.0000000023
8 0.000126213 0.4 5.04851E-05 0.0000000000

One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.

Um, you appear to have given webs stacking bonuses

The effect is 60% speed reduction. .869 * .6 = 52% speed reduction for the second web, which means the speed of the webbed ship is 48% * 480 = 230.4 ms.

The third web is .57 * 60% = 34.2% speed reduction. .658 * 230.4 ms is 151.6 ms, not 38.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#629 - 2013-12-06 20:53:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Really, show your work then.

Here is mine, if a bit messy:

Number of Webs + 1 Modifier Base Speed Adjustment Modified Speed Adjustment Base Speed 1200 KM
0 1 0.4 0.4 480
1 0.869119981 0.4 0.347647992 166.871036314
2 0.570583144 0.4 0.228233257 38.085520184
3 0.282955154 0.4 0.113182062 4.310597692
4 0.10599265 0.4 0.04239706 0.1827566685
5 0.029991167 0.4 0.011996467 0.0021924343
6 0.006410183 0.4 0.002564073 0.0000056216
7 0.00103492 0.4 0.000413968 0.0000000023
8 0.000126213 0.4 5.04851E-05 0.0000000000

One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.


As a first check, without doing any calculations, your calculations are wrong since reducing a positive number X by some fraction of X will never reach 0.

As a second check you can use eft or pyfa. These tools are sometimes wrong, but not for basic things like webbed velocity.

What you did is
Base * (1-web factor) * stacking penalty = new velocity. This is the same as new velocity = (base-(base*web factor))*stacking penalty.

How webs actually work is new velocity = base - (base*web factor*stacking penalty). You are stacking penalizing the base velocity.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#630 - 2013-12-06 20:55:05 UTC
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#631 - 2013-12-06 20:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

Also its not a difference between 10 and 20, its a difference between 10% base velocity and <1% base velocity. The difference is much more than 2-fold.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#632 - 2013-12-06 20:57:33 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:

Really, show your work then.

Here is mine, if a bit messy:

Number of Webs + 1 Modifier Base Speed Adjustment Modified Speed Adjustment Base Speed 1200 KM
0 1 0.4 0.4 480
1 0.869119981 0.4 0.347647992 166.871036314
2 0.570583144 0.4 0.228233257 38.085520184
3 0.282955154 0.4 0.113182062 4.310597692
4 0.10599265 0.4 0.04239706 0.1827566685
5 0.029991167 0.4 0.011996467 0.0021924343
6 0.006410183 0.4 0.002564073 0.0000056216
7 0.00103492 0.4 0.000413968 0.0000000023
8 0.000126213 0.4 5.04851E-05 0.0000000000

One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. For those who do copy and paste, the first colum is the number of additional webs (i.e. zero means you have 1 web fit), the second column is the stacking penalty, the third the unmodified speed percentage (i.e. a 60% web -> 40% speed after the web is applied), the third column is the modified speed (the stacking penalty times the unmodified speed effect) and the last is the effect on a ship going 1,200m/s.

Um, you appear to have given webs stacking bonuses

The effect is 60% speed reduction. .869 * .6 = 52% speed reduction for the second web, which means the speed of the webbed ship is 48% * 480 = 230.4 ms.

The third web is .57 * 60% = 34.2% speed reduction. .658 * 230.4 ms is 151.6 ms, not 38.


Yep, thought I could simplify my formulas by using the 0.4 directly. Thanks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#633 - 2013-12-06 21:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works.

EDIT: Normally, peoples wouldnt hotdrop dreads on any battleship only fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways. If dreads get dropped on top of a battleship fleet, its because there are other carriers / dreads on field with the battleship fleets.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#634 - 2013-12-06 21:05:02 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works.

EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways.


This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#635 - 2013-12-06 21:06:46 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

Also its not a difference between 10 and 20, its a difference between 10% base velocity and <1% base velocity. The difference is much more than 2-fold.



Stop talking. You're sounding as bad as Nightmare. 10/20 m/s is 1 factor in how much damage is taken. 1 factor of many. Stop talking. And Yeah.... there is a point where it doesn't matter if you're being 90% webbed or multiple 60% webbed, you're still dead. Go and show me where on the kill mail you've used a Vindi... and I'll start taking you seriously.


@Naomi:

Within 15k, for applying DPS, nope, Vindi is pretty much the top tier. Kinda how it was designed to be. Such a bad thing that something is doing the job it's supposed to.


Applying sick amounts of cap pressure, Bhaal is as good as it gets, though in certain situations a T3 or geddon might fit a bit better.

Long range, skirmish type warfare, Mach.


Things working as intended don't need nerfed. Eve doesn't need nerfed to drakes online, so stop promoting it.

I can feel my IQ dropping reading some of your posts... so .... yeah.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#636 - 2013-12-06 21:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works.

EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways.


This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot.

As long you dont use dreads to shoot those cruisers, everyone else will hit them. So yes, the speed there doesnt matter.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#637 - 2013-12-06 21:12:27 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Question is, does it matter if a ship does 10 m/s or 20 m/s after hes webbed in a fight?


Yes. One of them takes up to twice as much damage as the other. I leave it to you to figure out which one that is.

A carrier, dread, battleship, cruiser or any frigs will hit you as good at 20 m/s as they do at 10 m/s. Remember, we do dread blappage ops quite alot, so we know how that works.

EDIT: No one would hotdrop Dreads on any battleships fleets as carriers does a better job there anyways.


This would matter at all if you could get an ab cruiser to 20m/s with 60% webs. You cannot.

As long you dont use dreads to shoot those cruisers, everyone else will hit them. So yes, the speed there doesnt matter.




http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

Seriously, give it a try.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#638 - 2013-12-06 21:14:01 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

Seriously, give it a try.

If you cant add anything usefull to the discussion, then dont bother to reply with stupid posts.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#639 - 2013-12-06 21:16:14 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

Seriously, give it a try.

If you cant add anything usefull to the discussion, then dont bother to reply with stupid posts.


I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.

I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#640 - 2013-12-06 21:20:18 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I have literally pages of posts in here, educating you for free. This entire thread is like a charity to help people, such as yourself, who have played a game for almost a decade but havent learned the most basic things.

I think thats a very useful thing to do, and I am thus recommending you continue your education.

But you have shown that you dont have enough education to talk about how the Vindicator is and how it works or on how it should work.

Learn how to fly and use the Vindicator and you will see it pretty fast that the ship is pretty balanced and in no way overpowered on what it does compared to what the other pirate battleships are capable of doing.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama