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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#541 - 2013-12-05 20:36:09 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!



I think you're missing the point, it's not that there are counters, it's that the largest ship in game can counter a vast, vast range of ships including the smallest, fastest ones in game.

Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?



I 100% Agree with the statement that sometimes the counter is to NOT fight.

P sure that one has been in the Warfare manual since Early China, sometime around the era of Sun Tzu.....


What I don't agree with is any ship in the game feeling it is 100% safe from anything. If you undock into hostiles, you will be shot. And likely die. It's about as fundamental as anything gets.


Oh in that case lets give rifters doomsday devices and punishers x-l lasers.



*Insert over generalized, sarcastic, pointless counter*


We live 3 jumps from Amamake. ~7 from Avenod. Also ~7 from Hagilur.

Amamake= PL
Avenod = Shadow
Hag= Dead Terrorists who have gotten really comfortable in bed with Snuff lately


Every one of those entities can blap us into the ground if we engage them head on. So yes, sometimes the answer is to not fight.

Want a PL tower? Just re-inforce it 3-4 times. They'll stop forming for it. A) they can't form for them all the time because of their deployments, B) they'll get bored.

Want to Fight DT, or DT reinforce one of your towers? Yup, they're gonna bring friends.... SO.... bring your own friends, or let them win the battle of taking a tower, then take it back later.

Want to fight Shadow? Well... that one's a bit trickier. Still possible, but altogether more complicated.



There are without a doubt times when you simply do not fight. You do not fight the enemy when he is ready, his forces are strong, and his energy is right for engagement. You wait until he slumps, you wait until his forces slack off, and their energy fades. You know what he is doing, before he does it, and you force him to back pedal.


So far, we've been able to, for the most part, survive our significantly larger neighbors by picking and choosing our fights very carefully(Minus a ~20b BLops hiccup a few months back, but ya know). Choosing when to NOT engage is just as important as choosing TO engage.



That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with ship balance based counters or being at risk from any ship in any ship (as you were suggesting).?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#542 - 2013-12-05 20:37:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University

You didn't answer my question.

Until you have proven me wrong on this, i'm right.

So maybe it's not me that needs to join them after all?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#543 - 2013-12-05 20:37:56 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.

There isn't mentioned anywhere that modules gets stacking penalized after how many ships you use in the EVEWiki here: http://eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalty

It only says how more modules on one ship gets stacking penalized for using more than one module.

Ofc, you are free to correct me here aswell. But i doubt it as this is the wiki page you linked me earlier.



Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#544 - 2013-12-05 20:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...

Thank you. Also, 3x Vindicators with 1x 90% web each will take a 250 m/s ship down to 0,25 m/s. But then, 0,25 m/s or 1 m/s doesn't matter. They are so low to begin with that anyone including blap dreads will insta kill them.

So 3x Vindicators or 6x Megathrons will cause the same effect. But then, we pays over 1.1 billion isk for the Vindicator, so it's just logic that the Vindicator should be able to do one thing at least twice as much better than a normal Megathron would do as the Vindicator costs 6-7 times more than a normal Megathron.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#545 - 2013-12-05 20:47:51 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...

Thank you. Also, 3x Vindicators with 1x 90% web each will take a 250 m/s ship down to 0,25 m/s. But then, 0,25 m/s or 1 m/s doesn't matter. They are so low to begin with that anyone including blap dreads will insta kill them.


You realize that for 60% webs to web a ship down to 1m/s, its base speed would have to be 10 m/s? No ship in the game is that slow.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#546 - 2013-12-05 20:57:54 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...

Thank you. Also, 3x Vindicators with 1x 90% web each will take a 250 m/s ship down to 0,25 m/s. But then, 0,25 m/s or 1 m/s doesn't matter. They are so low to begin with that anyone including blap dreads will insta kill them.


You realize that for 60% webs to web a ship down to 1m/s, its base speed would have to be 10 m/s? No ship in the game is that slow.

As the web slows you down 60%, it means that no matter how many webs you have, you can't get the ship to do exactly 0 m/s.

Yes, with enough webs, you can get a ship to do 0.0001 m/s, but never to a stand still at complete 0.

So yes, like i said over, it's fully possible to take a 250 m/s ship down to 1 m/s with just 6x Megathrons that have one 60% web each.

Ship 1 with 60% web: 250 m/s - 60% = 100 m/s.
Ship 2 with 60% web: 100 m/s - 60% = 40 m/s.
Ship 3 with 60% web: 40 m/s - 60% = 16 m/s.
Ship 4 with 60% web: 16 m/s - 60% = 6.4 m/s.
Ship 5 with 60% web: 6.4 m/s - 60% = 2.56 m/s.
Ship 6 with 60% web: 2.56 m/s - 60% = 1.024 m/s.

So there you have it.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#547 - 2013-12-05 20:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
I thought we got you to understand that webs have a stacking penalty, like 6 or 7 pages ago.

Your answer of 1m/s is off by 96% of the actual velocity after you apply those webs.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#548 - 2013-12-05 21:00:09 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Consider yourself corrected. Offensive modules are stacking penalised against similar modules on other ships. That's why people don't bring 400 rapiers to a fight or 8000 TD curses...

Thank you. Also, 3x Vindicators with 1x 90% web each will take a 250 m/s ship down to 0,25 m/s. But then, 0,25 m/s or 1 m/s doesn't matter. They are so low to begin with that anyone including blap dreads will insta kill them.


You realize that for 60% webs to web a ship down to 1m/s, its base speed would have to be 10 m/s? No ship in the game is that slow.

As the web slows you down 60%, it means that no matter how many webs you have, you can't get the ship to do exactly 0 m/s.

Yes, with enough webs, you can get a ship to do 0.0001 m/s, but never to a stand still at complete 0.

So yes, like i said over, it's fully possible to take a 250 m/s ship down to 1 m/s with just 6x Megathrons that have one 60% web each.

Ship 1 with 60% web: 250 m/s - 60% = 100 m/s.
Ship 2 with 60% web: 100 m/s - 60% = 40 m/s.
Ship 3 with 60% web: 40 m/s - 60% = 16 m/s.
Ship 4 with 60% web: 16 m/s - 60% = 6.4 m/s.
Ship 5 with 60% web: 6.4 m/s - 60% = 2.56 m/s.
Ship 6 with 60% web: 2.56 m/s - 60% = 1.024 m/s.

So there you have it.



No, because webs are stacking penalised, so every web after the first doesn't do 60% reduction of the remaining speed. That's what stacking penalties are...
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#549 - 2013-12-05 21:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
I thought we got you to understand that webs have a stacking penalty, like 6 or 7 pages ago.

On each ships yes, but ships doesn't get staking penalty for each ship that use a 60% webber.

Tawa Suyo wrote:
No, because webs are stacking penalised, so every web after the first doesn't do 60% reduction of the remaining speed. That's what stacking penalties are...

Where in this wiki does it say that if one ship have a 60% web, the other one on your side fighting with you gets his web penalized?: http://eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalty

A stacking penalty only applies on your current ship and not on your other friends ships lol.

If that had been the case, then lol at my friends damage mods who would stack from my ships damage mods to their ships then hahahahaha. Yes, damage mods on YOUR ship doesn't stacks to your other friends ships and so doesn't webbers either.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#550 - 2013-12-05 21:01:33 UTC
I dont really see an issue with 90% webs on such a specialised hull as the serpentis ships.

In context of blapping battleships with dreads in lowsec it basically frees one web slot compared to a unbonused dualweb ship.
Even extreme cases like dual nano High grade Snake Machariels with skirmish boosts and all that stuff still are going to take about 10% of the Dread (dual unscripted tracking computers, dread at 30k, standard drop booster) DPS assuming the pilot flies in a perfect 90° angle to the Moros (or Naglfar, there is no big difference between them) and is going to be travelling at his max speed. Every other BS wont be able to mitigate the DPS in such a way and will be travelling at speeds close to 0.
So in the end when buying a Vindicator instead of a Megathron Navy/Standard youre paying for one additional med slot and a 20% DPS boost, basically same goes with the Vigilant too.
I need to admit I dont have experience with T3 vs T3 blobs in W-Space though.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#551 - 2013-12-05 21:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
I dont really see an issue with 90% webs on such a specialised hull as the serpentis ships.

In context of blapping battleships with dreads in lowsec it basically frees one web slot compared to a unbonused dualweb ship.
Even extreme cases like dual nano High grade Snake Machariels with skirmish boosts and all that stuff still are going to take about 10% of the Dread (dual unscripted tracking computers, dread at 30k, standard drop booster) DPS assuming the pilot flies in a perfect 90° angle to the Moros (or Naglfar, there is no big difference between them) and is going to be travelling at his max speed. Every other BS wont be able to mitigate the DPS in such a way and will be travelling at speeds close to 0.
So in the end when buying a Vindicator instead of a Megathron Navy/Standard youre paying for one additional med slot and a 20% DPS boost, basically same goes with the Vigilant too.
I need to admit I dont have experience with T3 vs T3 blobs in W-Space though.


Wrong.

1 90% web saves you 4 midslots.

2 90% webs dont save you midslots since you cant replicate the webbing power with any number of 60% webs.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2013-12-05 21:17:07 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with ship balance based counters or being at risk from any ship in any ship (as you were suggesting).?



It has to do with the whole
Quote:
Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?
Thing.


I'm not going to spend any more time on what and how to counter a vindicator. You still don't know, then re-read the thread. We've got 20 pages + on how to do that here.


Context.... Man.


Quote:
Wrong.

1 90% web saves you 4 midslots.

2 90% webs dont save you midslots since you cant replicate the webbing power with any number of 60% webs.



I could be wrong, but AFAIA, stacking never reduces benefit to absolute zero or negative values, correct?

If it doesn't, then there IS a number of webs that, eventually WILL get you there. And if that's the case, then we can eliminate 90% webs as the problem and shift the problem to where it should be, which is in web stacking. If you really believe there is a problem in 2 factions with 3 ships each having a strong, unique bonus. Which there really isn't....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#553 - 2013-12-05 21:17:46 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with ship balance based counters or being at risk from any ship in any ship (as you were suggesting).?



It has to do with the whole
Quote:
Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?
Thing.


I'm not going to spend any more time on what and how to counter a vindicator. You still don't know, then re-read the thread. We've got 20 pages + on how to do that here.


Context.... Man.


Quote:
Wrong.

1 90% web saves you 4 midslots.

2 90% webs dont save you midslots since you cant replicate the webbing power with any number of 60% webs.



I could be wrong, but AFAIA, stacking never reduces benefit to absolute zero or negative values, correct?

If it doesn't, then there IS a number of webs that, eventually WILL get you there. And if that's the case, then we can eliminate 90% webs as the problem and shift the problem to where it should be, which is in web stacking. If you really believe there is a problem in 2 factions with 3 ships each having a strong, unique bonus. Which there really isn't....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2013-12-05 21:22:03 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series




So does that value reach absolute zero? Or is it always something positive?

Because throwing up wikipedia general maths links is pure win.



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#555 - 2013-12-05 21:22:55 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
I dont really see an issue with 90% webs on such a specialised hull as the serpentis ships.

In context of blapping battleships with dreads in lowsec it basically frees one web slot compared to a unbonused dualweb ship.
Even extreme cases like dual nano High grade Snake Machariels with skirmish boosts and all that stuff still are going to take about 10% of the Dread (dual unscripted tracking computers, dread at 30k, standard drop booster) DPS assuming the pilot flies in a perfect 90° angle to the Moros (or Naglfar, there is no big difference between them) and is going to be travelling at his max speed. Every other BS wont be able to mitigate the DPS in such a way and will be travelling at speeds close to 0.
So in the end when buying a Vindicator instead of a Megathron Navy/Standard youre paying for one additional med slot and a 20% DPS boost, basically same goes with the Vigilant too.
I need to admit I dont have experience with T3 vs T3 blobs in W-Space though.


Wrong.

1 90% web saves you 4 midslots.

2 90% webs dont save you midslots since you cant replicate the webbing power with any number of 60% webs.


You dont need 90% webs to blap a battleship.
Everything else will be rather dropped by black ops.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#556 - 2013-12-05 21:26:58 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series




So does that value reach absolute zero? Or is it always something positive?

Because throwing up wikipedia general maths links is pure win.





The stacking penalty series converges. This means it is always positive, yet it reaches a finite value.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2013-12-05 21:31:36 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series




So does that value reach absolute zero? Or is it always something positive?

Because throwing up wikipedia general maths links is pure win.





The stacking penalty series converges. This means it is always positive, yet it reaches a finite value.



So lemme ask you another question: How often do you fly a Vindicator? A dread? A bhaal?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#558 - 2013-12-05 21:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Kenrailae wrote:
So lemme ask you another question: How often do you fly a Vindicator? A dread? A bhaal?

Never according to Battleclinic: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Michael+Harari#knownShips

He's a frig and cruiser pilot. No wonder why he are scared of going near a Vindicator lol.

Not only that, but he's a solo pilot. And it's funny that he thinks he can go in close in a frig or a cruiser to a Vindicator and think he can go in get away from a very professional and experienced Vindicator pilot alone.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#559 - 2013-12-05 22:00:02 UTC
Michael 1 - 0 Mind Games.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#560 - 2013-12-05 22:03:25 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
I thought we got you to understand that webs have a stacking penalty, like 6 or 7 pages ago.

On each ships yes, but ships doesn't get staking penalty for each ship that use a 60% webber.

Tawa Suyo wrote:
No, because webs are stacking penalised, so every web after the first doesn't do 60% reduction of the remaining speed. That's what stacking penalties are...

Where in this wiki does it say that if one ship have a 60% web, the other one on your side fighting with you gets his web penalized?: http://eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalty

A stacking penalty only applies on your current ship and not on your other friends ships lol.

If that had been the case, then lol at my friends damage mods who would stack from my ships damage mods to their ships then hahahahaha. Yes, damage mods on YOUR ship doesn't stacks to your other friends ships and so doesn't webbers either.



There's this magical place called Singularity where you can go and test stuff.

If you actually did that instead of get your information from second and third hand sources, you know do your own experiments, like people that do research and then make claims usually do.

You will find that Michael is right and you are in fact wrong. Webs are counted on the target they're applied to regardless of who is applying them, so yes a second and third web are penalized regardless of what ship is applying them to the target.

Now stop making an ass of yourself.