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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#521 - 2013-12-05 19:37:00 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
90% web effect isn't any more overpowered than 100% longer web range


Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Dreads are not pirate ships.

Just saying.


If a XL guns can track then so can literally every other gun in game. You are aware that fleets exist right?

So again; Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Again, what a pirate ship is and does should be independent on what other ships is capable of doing.


Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#522 - 2013-12-05 19:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
90% web effect isn't any more overpowered than 100% longer web range


Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Dreads are not pirate ships.

Just saying.


This is true. However I dont think anyone besides you has ever argued that the only metric for balance should be intra-class balance.

And multiple people have said in this thread "90% webs are super broken, but when you nerf them you have to give the serpentis line something else"

That something else will probably take the form of a falloff or tracking bonus (or even both), unless Fozzie decides to do something more exotic.


shield tanked fast and ganky would be nice like a hyped up shield thorax ... and leave the web strength with the blood raiders instead
or blood raiders could be web range instead across the board instead of only bhaal having it ... it would match with scorch and neut range bonus 15km sweet spot of neuts, webs and lasers..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#523 - 2013-12-05 19:41:06 UTC
I think a fair trade would be 75% webs, and then a 2nd falloff bonus on the daredevil, a split falloff/tracking bonus on the vigilant, and a tracking bonus on the vindicator.

Maybe also adjust the base stats and slots (although the cruor and ashimuu are in much more dire need of that)
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#524 - 2013-12-05 19:44:39 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
90% web effect isn't any more overpowered than 100% longer web range


Please explain how a web range bonus allows blap dreads to track ab hacs (or even ab frigates) in the same way that a 90% web does?

Dreads are not pirate ships.

Just saying.


This is true. However I dont think anyone besides you has ever argued that the only metric for balance should be intra-class balance.

And multiple people have said in this thread "90% webs are super broken, but when you nerf them you have to give the serpentis line something else"

That something else will probably take the form of a falloff or tracking bonus (or even both), unless Fozzie decides to do something more exotic.


shield tanked fast and ganky would be nice like a hyped up shield thorax ... and leave the web strength with the blood raiders instead
or blood raiders could be web range instead across the board instead of only bhaal having it ... it would match with scorch and neut range bonus 15km sweet spot of neuts, webs and lasers..



Certainly the second option for blood is the way forward I think.


And yes, what to do with serpentis without the web bonus is definitely the more interesting question (compared to bashing my head against a lump of wood).
I'm inclined to agree with Michael in that the obvious route is to give them application bonii, since that was part of the benefit of the web bonus from the point of view of self. Not that I'd be against something more interesting, but that would require a high level of balancing and thought beforehand.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#525 - 2013-12-05 19:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

So just because dreads are able to hit some ships because their targets are webbed enough makes the webbing ships to powerfull?

So intead of using 3x Vindicators, we can use 6x Megathrons. Oh nooooooes, the Megathrons will be to powerfull to as they will web most ships down so much that any dreads can hit them to.

OMG, nerf the 60% webs down to 40% now so dreads can't hit the ships.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#526 - 2013-12-05 19:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

So just because dreads are able to hit some ships because their targets are webbed enough makes the webbing ships to powerfull?

So intead of using 3x Vindicators, we can use 6x Megathrons. Oh nooooooes, the Megathrons will be to powerfull to as they will web most ships down so much that any dreads can hit them to.

OMG, nerf the 60% webs down to 40% now.


Ok, im going to spell this out very clearly and slowly for you.

No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs. Not 6 60% webs. Not 10 60% webs. Not a million 60% webs. 6 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator. will. 600 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will. 60000000000 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will.

You can take every single web module in the game and apply them all on a particular ship. That ship would be webbed more by a single vindicator with two webs.
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#527 - 2013-12-05 19:50:41 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

So just because dreads are able to hit some ships because their targets are webbed enough makes the webbing ships to powerfull?

So intead of using 3x Vindicators, we can use 6x Megathrons. Oh nooooooes, the Megathrons will be to powerfull to as they will web most ships down so much that any dreads can hit them to.

OMG, nerf the 60% webs down to 40% now.


Ok, im going to spell this out very clearly and slowly for you.

No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs. Not 6 60% webs. Not 10 60% webs. Not a million 60% webs. 6 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator. will. 600 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will. 60000000000 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will.




Webs are stacking penalised. I thought we covered this 4 pages back...
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#528 - 2013-12-05 19:52:48 UTC
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!





Let's get back to the real discussion shall we?



THIS thread is NOT about dreads, anything to do with dreads, the fact dreads exist, or do not exist, the fact PL can't count on server crashing to save their titans every time, the fact DBRB is one of the most successful fight starters in Eve, the fact Sentries are broken, or anything OTHER than Pirate ships.


So stop.




Dreads are a whole different discussion.




A vindicator has abysmal lock range. It has a fairly soft tank for a battleship. It has a really short engagement range. It can be ECM'd. It can be Neuted. It can be damped. It can be DPS'd. It can be blapped. It can die, just like any other ship in game, and usually in some pretty horrible ways.

'Oh no, I actually have to pick and choose what fights I take and don't!'


Welcome to Eve.

A vindicator pilot certainly does not just undock his vindi at the first piece of space dust that floats by. Nor should any other ship in the game. Dreads do not need a single web to hit anything. All they need is a bad pilot. Vindicator's only help bad pilots to make more mistakes. Lock range and time on vindicators is so bad, you should have been well off field by the time vindi's and dreads locked you. Or you're the 1 person that 20 people just spent 40bil isk on to drop you and kill you, and you think you should have a get out of jail free card?


Pfffft. Please.


There is no situation, station camping, gate camping, random engagement, where you shouldn't be taking a risk. If you engage something, it might have a cyno. If you undock on a camped station, you might get shot. If you jump into a gate camp, you will likely die. Unless you have a cyno at which point the gate camp will likely die.


All I'm hearing are a bunch of people who are sore because 'Oh noes, I have to have some risk with my PVP!'


You realize that your AB HAC costs about 300m on a good day? Your skills for it are far less intensive than the vindicator and dread pilot? That if they decide to drop you or engage you, they're risking in excess of 4b just to engage you? And your whining because your 300m HAC MIGHT be something they can kill?





Hello?


Is this thing on?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#529 - 2013-12-05 19:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

So just because dreads are able to hit some ships because their targets are webbed enough makes the webbing ships to powerfull?

So intead of using 3x Vindicators, we can use 6x Megathrons. Oh nooooooes, the Megathrons will be to powerfull to as they will web most ships down so much that any dreads can hit them to.

OMG, nerf the 60% webs down to 40% now.


Ok, im going to spell this out very clearly and slowly for you.

No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs. Not 6 60% webs. Not 10 60% webs. Not a million 60% webs. 6 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator. will. 600 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will. 60000000000 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will.


That was not the point acording to you. The point according to you was that a dread could hit the ships because they was being webbed down so much that X-L guns would be able to track and hit them no matter what and not how much 3x Vindicators would be able to web a ship down compared to 6x Megathrons.

As 6x Megathrons isn't stacking penalized to each others, then 60% web will apply every time a 60% web is used from each ship. So a ship that does 250 m/s as normal will do around 1 m/s after that as a Mega pilot will use 1x webber. And one webber does have the full 60% web effect on each ship. And again, as each ship will have 60% web effect for each webber, it will be 250 - 60% = 100 m/s. 100 m/s - 60% on the 2nd Mega is 40 m/s. 40 m/s - 60% on the 3rd Mega is 16 m/s. And 16 m/s - 60% on the 4th Mega is 6.4 m/s. 6.4 m/s -60% on the 5th Mega is 2.56 m/s. And lastly, the 2.56 m/s - 60% on the 6th Mega is 1.024 m/s.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#530 - 2013-12-05 20:02:52 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Yes, and 90% webs are broken both in the context of a vindicator alone, and in the (much more common) context of vindicators in a fleet with dreads.

So just because dreads are able to hit some ships because their targets are webbed enough makes the webbing ships to powerfull?

So intead of using 3x Vindicators, we can use 6x Megathrons. Oh nooooooes, the Megathrons will be to powerfull to as they will web most ships down so much that any dreads can hit them to.

OMG, nerf the 60% webs down to 40% now.


Ok, im going to spell this out very clearly and slowly for you.

No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs. Not 6 60% webs. Not 10 60% webs. Not a million 60% webs. 6 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator. will. 600 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will. 60000000000 megathrons will web a ship down less than 1 vindicator will.


That was not the point acording to you. The point was that a dread could hit the ships because they was being webbed down so much that X-L guns would hit then no matter what and not how much 3x Vindicators would be able to web a ship down compared to 6x Megathrons.



You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?
Tawa Suyo
C.O.D.E
#531 - 2013-12-05 20:06:09 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!



I think you're missing the point, it's not that there are counters, it's that the largest ship in game can counter a vast, vast range of ships including the smallest, fastest ones in game.

Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#532 - 2013-12-05 20:06:25 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#533 - 2013-12-05 20:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2013-12-05 20:17:50 UTC
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!



I think you're missing the point, it's not that there are counters, it's that the largest ship in game can counter a vast, vast range of ships including the smallest, fastest ones in game.

Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?



I 100% Agree with the statement that sometimes the counter is to NOT fight.

P sure that one has been in the Warfare manual since Early China, sometime around the era of Sun Tzu.....


What I don't agree with is any ship in the game feeling it is 100% safe from anything. If you undock into hostiles, you will be shot. And likely die. It's about as fundamental as anything gets.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#535 - 2013-12-05 20:19:30 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!



I think you're missing the point, it's not that there are counters, it's that the largest ship in game can counter a vast, vast range of ships including the smallest, fastest ones in game.

Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?



I 100% Agree with the statement that sometimes the counter is to NOT fight.

P sure that one has been in the Warfare manual since Early China, sometime around the era of Sun Tzu.....


What I don't agree with is any ship in the game feeling it is 100% safe from anything. If you undock into hostiles, you will be shot. And likely die. It's about as fundamental as anything gets.


Oh in that case lets give rifters doomsday devices and punishers x-l lasers.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#536 - 2013-12-05 20:23:48 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.


Welcome to arguing game balance with NightmareX, when you're done please come have a seat with us who learned not to try teaching him common sense.

No sig.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2013-12-05 20:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Michael Harari wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
So what I'm getting from reading all of this is everyone wants risk free PVP.

You all think you should be able to whip around in your frigates and HAC's with impunity.

A ship shows up that actually threatens you and NOPE TOO STRONK NRF PLS!!!



I think you're missing the point, it's not that there are counters, it's that the largest ship in game can counter a vast, vast range of ships including the smallest, fastest ones in game.

Or are you really suggesting that the counter to a fleet should be to not fight it?



I 100% Agree with the statement that sometimes the counter is to NOT fight.

P sure that one has been in the Warfare manual since Early China, sometime around the era of Sun Tzu.....


What I don't agree with is any ship in the game feeling it is 100% safe from anything. If you undock into hostiles, you will be shot. And likely die. It's about as fundamental as anything gets.


Oh in that case lets give rifters doomsday devices and punishers x-l lasers.



*Insert over generalized, sarcastic, pointless counter*


We live 3 jumps from Amamake. ~7 from Avenod. Also ~7 from Hagilur.

Amamake= PL
Avenod = Shadow
Hag= Dead Terrorists who have gotten really comfortable in bed with Snuff lately


Every one of those entities can blap us into the ground if we engage them head on. So yes, sometimes the answer is to not fight.

Want a PL tower? Just re-inforce it 3-4 times. They'll stop forming for it. A) they can't form for them all the time because of their deployments, B) they'll get bored.

Want to Fight DT, or DT reinforce one of your towers? Yup, they're gonna bring friends.... SO.... bring your own friends, or let them win the battle of taking a tower, then take it back later.

Want to fight Shadow? Well... that one's a bit trickier. Still possible, but altogether more complicated.



There are without a doubt times when you simply do not fight. You do not fight the enemy when he is ready, his forces are strong, and his energy is right for engagement. You wait until he slumps, you wait until his forces slack off, and their energy fades. You know what he is doing, before he does it, and you force him to back pedal.


So far, we've been able to, for the most part, survive our significantly larger neighbors by picking and choosing our fights very carefully(Minus a ~20b BLops hiccup a few months back, but ya know). Choosing when to NOT engage is just as important as choosing TO engage.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#538 - 2013-12-05 20:28:17 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.


Welcome to arguing game balance with NightmareX, when you're done please come have a seat with us who learned not to try teaching him common sense.


I just dont understand how he can have been playing for 9 years but not know basic mechanics. I mean, 9 years is enough time to train a surgeon.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#539 - 2013-12-05 20:31:02 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.

There isn't mentioned anywhere that modules gets stacking penalized after how many ships you use in the EVEWiki here: http://eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalty

It only says how more modules on one ship gets stacking penalized for using more than one module.

Ofc, you are free to correct me here aswell. But i doubt it as this is the wiki page you linked me earlier.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#540 - 2013-12-05 20:35:23 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Tawa Suyo wrote:
You realise that due to stacking penalties it's only possible to web things to that level with 90% webs?

Read my edited post over.


Your post is still wrong. 2 ships webbing a target with 1 web each is the same as 1 ship webbing a target with 2 webs.

Edit: I really, really think you should join eve uni for a while.

There isn't mentioned anywhere that modules gets stacking penalized after how many ships you use in the EVEWiki here: http://eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalty

It only says how more modules on one ship gets stacking penalized for using more than one module.

Ofc, you are free to correct me here aswell. But i doubt it as this is the wiki page you linked me earlier.


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Applying_to_EVE_University