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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#441 - 2013-12-05 09:01:44 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
CCP will not mess with the ships masses because the fear of WH exploitation. The Marauder was intended to have it's mass mutiplied on Bastion mode (no time for linking sources).

All it takes to prevent WH exploitation is to make them count unmodified (or "static fitting stats modified, but before temporary effects applied") mass. Done. Now you can play with mass effects all the way you wish.

NaK'Lin wrote:
the effect on the ship is ALSO 50% stronger. (100% speed -> 40% speed vs 100% speed -> 10% speed)

Manipulating percents as they were additives rarely makes sense, moreso in EVE. The fact is, you are 4 times slower under bonused web than under unbonused, due to nature of EVE formulas that means you are about 4 times easier to hit, it takes you 4 times longer to burn to gate etc. Number of 50% does not appear anywhere it would practically matter.

My point is that there is a difference between :
"I am only 1/4 as fast under the effects of bonused webs than under the effects of unbonused ones"
and
"bonused webs slow me down 4 times as much"

The difference is 50%, the application is not additive, it's multiplicative on the % value not on the speed.


You're wrong, he is right.

When it comes to how much it benefits tracking/general dps application 90% webs are about four times more powerful than normal ones. and again.. stacking.

This is the same reason why the last point in interceptors is so important, because the difference is ******* massive. (And why you will notice that if your average res is say... 80%, an increase of say 5% increases your over all tank by more like 25%+)

percentages are tricky like that.


4x as powerful result != 400% effect
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#442 - 2013-12-05 10:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
NaK'Lin wrote:
4x as powerful result != 400% effect

I still don't think that's the way to calculate it.

If a ship is doing 100 m/s, the 60% webber will take it down to 40 m/s while the 90% webber takes it to 10 m/s. 2x 60% webs takes it to 16 m/s witch is so low speed that it doesn't matter anylonger. So in this case, it means that the 90% webber does have a little over double the power of the normal 60% webber.

If we use a 1% webber as an example against a 99.9% webber, then a 100 m/s ship will do 99 m/s with the 1% webber and it will do 0.1 m/s with the 99.9% webber. Does this means that the 99.9% webber is 99999% better than the 1% webber?

No, it means that the 99.9% webber is 98.9% more powerfull than the 1% webber if we see it this way.

Or we can also say a 60% webber slows your 100 m/s ship down 60 m/s while a 90% webber slows you down 90 m/s. And then we can take 60 and + it with 50%. It will then be 90 m/s that is slowed down that is the same speed slowed down as the 90% webber does.

So in reality, a 90% webber it's actually 50% more powerfull than a 60% webber if we calculate how many m/s in speed a 90% web slows down compared to a 60% webber and not from what the original speed is to what the speed is after you are webbed.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
YUE CHIYOKO
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2013-12-05 10:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: YUE CHIYOKO
Oops
Ger Atol
Alchemax Applied Sciences
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#444 - 2013-12-05 10:47:03 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
4x as powerful result != 400% effect

I still don't think that's the way to calculate it.

If a ship is doing 100 m/s, the 60% webber will take it down to 40 m/s while the 90% webber takes it to 10 m/s. 2x 60% webs takes it to 16 m/s witch is so low speed that it doesn't matter anylonger. So in this case, it means that the 90% webber does have a little over double the power of the normal 60% webber.

If we use a 1% webber as an example against a 99.9% webber, then a 100 m/s ship will do 99 m/s with the 1% webber and it will do 0.1 m/s with the 99.9% webber. Does this means that the 99.9% webber is 99999% better than the 1% webber?

No, it means that the 99.9% webber is 98.9% more powerfull than the 1% webber if we see it this way.

Or we can also say a 60% webber slows your 100 m/s ship down 60 m/s while a 90% webber slows you down 90 m/s. And then we can take 60 and + it with 50%. It will then be 90 m/s that is slowed down that is the same speed slowed down as the 90% webber does.

So in reality, a 90% webber it's actually 50% more powerfull than a 60% webber if we calculate how many m/s in speed a 90% web slows down compared to a 60% webber and not from what the original speed is to what the speed is after you are webbed.




Exactly, 1 X 60% web on a vindi with pilot with minBS5 = 1 X 90% web in effect.

Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#445 - 2013-12-05 11:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Ger Atol wrote:
Exactly, 1 X 60% web on a vindi with pilot with minBS5 = 1 X 90% web in effect.

Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.

Not only that, but: 'Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level' is written on the Description on the Vindicator.

It clearly states that at Minmatar Battleship skill at level 5, the webber is 50% more powerfull than a normal 60% webber.

So it's right that the speed on how many m/s you get slowed down from the original speed rather than what m/s you get slowed down to is the right method of calculating this.

EDIT: Just to add. The strenght can't be more than 100% at max anyways because if you are webbed 1%, you lose 1% of your speed. If you however are 100% webbed, you do 0 m/s, so it's impossible that the effect can be stronger than 100% for any of the webbers. It's either speed or no speed.

Also, a 100% webber is ~66.66667% stronger than the 60% webber.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#446 - 2013-12-05 12:57:07 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Ger Atol wrote:
Exactly, 1 X 60% web on a vindi with pilot with minBS5 = 1 X 90% web in effect.

Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.

Not only that, but: 'Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level' is written on the Description on the Vindicator.

It clearly states that at Minmatar Battleship skill at level 5, the webber is 50% more powerfull than a normal 60% webber.

So it's right that the speed on how many m/s you get slowed down from the original speed rather than what m/s you get slowed down to is the right method of calculating this.

EDIT: Just to add. The strenght can't be more than 100% at max anyways because if you are webbed 1%, you lose 1% of your speed. If you however are 100% webbed, you do 0 m/s, so it's impossible that the effect can be stronger than 100% for any of the webbers. It's either speed or no speed.

Also, a 100% webber is ~66.66667% stronger than the 60% webber.


The % of a web is a completely arbitrary number.

If eve devs wanted to, the speed reduction could be twice the web factor, or half the web factor, or anything else they wanted. The pertinent quantity to calculate is the % velocity the ship has left. A 90% web isnt 50% stronger than a 60% web for the same reason that 90% resists dont give you 50% more ehp than 60% resists.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#447 - 2013-12-05 13:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
The % of a web is a completely arbitrary number.

If eve devs wanted to, the speed reduction could be twice the web factor, or half the web factor, or anything else they wanted. The pertinent quantity to calculate is the % velocity the ship has left. A 90% web isnt 50% stronger than a 60% web for the same reason that 90% resists dont give you 50% more ehp than 60% resists.

But CCP have calculated the extra web bonus in strenght after how many extra % the speeds gets slowed down compared to how much the 60% webber slows you down.

If a 100 m/s ship gets webbed by a 60% webber, then it will get 60 m/s slower. If it gets webbed by a 90% webber, then it does 90 m/s lesser and it means that the Vindicator needs 50% more power to slow the ship another 30 m/s down.

And 60% + 66.66667% is 100 that is the top speed of the ship. So it's impossible that the strenght can be more than 67% more powerfull than the 60% webber is as that would take the speed in minus.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#448 - 2013-12-05 13:14:33 UTC
Ger Atol wrote:


Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.


Not really. 2 60% webs are 81% velocity reduction. The ship is moving almost twice as fast as it would be with a 90% web.


Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#449 - 2013-12-05 13:18:46 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
The % of a web is a completely arbitrary number.

If eve devs wanted to, the speed reduction could be twice the web factor, or half the web factor, or anything else they wanted. The pertinent quantity to calculate is the % velocity the ship has left. A 90% web isnt 50% stronger than a 60% web for the same reason that 90% resists dont give you 50% more ehp than 60% resists.

But CCP have calculated the extra web bonus in strenght after how many extra % the speeds gets slowed down compared to how much the 60% webber slows you down.

If a 100 m/s ship gets webbed by a 60% webber, then it will get 60 m/s slower. If it gets webbed by a 90% webber, then it does 90 m/s lesser and it means that the Vindicator needs 50% more power to slow the ship another 30 m/s down.

And 60% + 66.66667% is 100 that is the top speed of the ship. So it's impossible that the strenght can be more than 67% more powerfull than the 60% webber is as that would take the speed in minus.


Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#450 - 2013-12-05 13:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

There is alot more to counter in for that rather than just 1 thing (speed loss in m/s) like the web have to depend on. With the resists, you have to counter in 4 different resist types while on the webber, you have only one speed type to use.

And as the resists only can go from 0 to 100% here to, there will also only be one choice on how to calculate this.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#451 - 2013-12-05 13:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

There is alot more to counter in for that rather than just 1 thing (speed loss in m/s) like the web have to depend on. With the resists, you have to counter in 4 different resist types while on the webber, you have only one speed type to use.

And as the resists onlycan be from 0 to 100% here to, there will also only be one choice on how to calculate this.


Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

Or how about this: Does a ship under 60% td-range have 50% more range than a ship under 90% td-range?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#452 - 2013-12-05 13:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

There is alot more to counter in for that rather than just 1 thing (speed loss in m/s) like the web have to depend on. With the resists, you have to counter in 4 different resist types while on the webber, you have only one speed type to use.

And as the resists onlycan be from 0 to 100% here to, there will also only be one choice on how to calculate this.


Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

Or how about this: Does a ship under 60% td-range have 50% more range than a ship under 90% td-range?

No. A ship that have 60.4% resists to all damage types on armor and 27.5% to all shield resists have in this case 12.6k EHP. By taking the armor resists on all damage types up to 80.3% makes the ship to have 25.4k EHP witch is over 100% more EHP.

But we are not calculating EHP here, we are calculation the differences in resists that goes all from 0 to 100% in the same way as how many m/s a webber slows you down (witch is calculated all from 0 to 100%) and not what m/s it slows you down to from the original speed.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#453 - 2013-12-05 13:55:55 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
It's funny how some people's idea of "balancing" is "everything should remain exactly as it is right now".


And its funny that the idea that some of the ships are out of balance meant that CCP had to balance all of them.

Pirate ships are largely fine with the exception of a few.

Angel ships, fine, one and all

Serpentis ships, Vigilant could use some love but the other two are fine

Blood ships, Bhal is fine, cruiser and frigate need work

Guristas ships the Worm needed help, the other two are fine

Sansha's ships, the Nightmare is iconic and perfectly fine as is, the cruiser and frigate need drastic fixes.



People say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for a reason, the Pilgrim languishes for years untouched and unloved but the good pirate ships, oh no we have to balance those.

Seriously, know when to keep your hands off something because its working fine.

agreed, tho the vigilant is fine imao, it's fine the way it is, so is the Ashimmu
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#454 - 2013-12-05 13:56:55 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

There is alot more to counter in for that rather than just 1 thing (speed loss in m/s) like the web have to depend on. With the resists, you have to counter in 4 different resist types while on the webber, you have only one speed type to use.

And as the resists onlycan be from 0 to 100% here to, there will also only be one choice on how to calculate this.


Ok. Then does a ship that goes from 60% em resist to 90% em resist have 50% more ehp vs em?

Or how about this: Does a ship under 60% td-range have 50% more range than a ship under 90% td-range?

No. A ship that have 60.4% resists to all damage types on armor and 27.5% to all shield resists have in this case 12.6k EHP. By taking the armor resists on all damage types up to 80.3% makes the ship to have 25.4k EHP witch is over 100% more EHP.


This is not what I asked.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#455 - 2013-12-05 13:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
This is not what I asked.

But you got an answer on what you was aking for that was a no. It was no because it was the truth as my calculation did show.

Or how would you calculate it then?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#456 - 2013-12-05 14:25:27 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
This is not what I asked.

But you got an answer on what you was aking for that was a no. It was no because it was the truth as my calculation did show.

Or how would you calculate it then?


The calculation is quite easy. Ehp = Hp/(1-resists)

So at 60% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.6)=2.5*hp

At 90% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.9)=10*hp. This is a 4-fold increase in ehp.


So are 90% resists 50% more effective than 60% resists, or 4 times as effective?
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#457 - 2013-12-05 14:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Michael Harari wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
This is not what I asked.

But you got an answer on what you was aking for that was a no. It was no because it was the truth as my calculation did show.

Or how would you calculate it then?


The calculation is quite easy. Ehp = Hp/(1-resists)

So at 60% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.6)=2.5*hp

At 90% resists you have ehp=Hp/(1-.9)=10*hp. This is a 4-fold increase in ehp.


So are 90% resists 50% more effective than 60% resists, or 4 times as effective?

Again, you are supposed to calculate how much better the resists gets from 60 to 90% instead of calculating what the EHP is. EHP and resists is not the same.

It's the same with webbers. You are supposed to calculate how much slower you make the ship to go in m/s rather than calculating what speeds it have after it's slowed down.

EDIT: Just adding this to. When you calculate DPS, you wont calculate what the alpha is as it's something else than DPS.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#458 - 2013-12-05 14:54:35 UTC
Ger Atol wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
4x as powerful result != 400% effect

I still don't think that's the way to calculate it.

If a ship is doing 100 m/s, the 60% webber will take it down to 40 m/s while the 90% webber takes it to 10 m/s. 2x 60% webs takes it to 16 m/s witch is so low speed that it doesn't matter anylonger. So in this case, it means that the 90% webber does have a little over double the power of the normal 60% webber.

If we use a 1% webber as an example against a 99.9% webber, then a 100 m/s ship will do 99 m/s with the 1% webber and it will do 0.1 m/s with the 99.9% webber. Does this means that the 99.9% webber is 99999% better than the 1% webber?

No, it means that the 99.9% webber is 98.9% more powerfull than the 1% webber if we see it this way.

Or we can also say a 60% webber slows your 100 m/s ship down 60 m/s while a 90% webber slows you down 90 m/s. And then we can take 60 and + it with 50%. It will then be 90 m/s that is slowed down that is the same speed slowed down as the 90% webber does.

So in reality, a 90% webber it's actually 50% more powerfull than a 60% webber if we calculate how many m/s in speed a 90% web slows down compared to a 60% webber and not from what the original speed is to what the speed is after you are webbed.




Exactly, 1 X 60% web on a vindi with pilot with minBS5 = 1 X 90% web in effect.

Regardless of what figures get thrown around, the situation is, that 1 X 90% web does the same job 2 X 60% unbonused webs do anywhere else.

this basically frees up a mid slot.


That is just not true.

Lets say a cruiser does 757/989 m/s with an AB.

one vindi web: 76/99
two vindi webs: 16/22 (Thats basically stationary)

normal web: 303/395
two normal webs: 145/189
three normal webs: 95/124
four normal webs: 79/103
five normal webs: 74/97


One vindi web is worth five normal webs. And no amount of normal webs will ever bring that ship down to 16 m/s (in fact it stops going down at 72.. more than three times as fast as under two vindi webs)

If you add more vindi webs however.. Well with four vindi webs that cruiser goes 8 m/s overheated... which is well under what you need to make it blappable with a dread. No amount of normal webs will do that.

50% my ass.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#459 - 2013-12-05 15:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
50% my ass.

Again, the webber strenght can only go from 0 to 100%.

If your webber have 1%, it will slow a 100m/s ship down 1 m/s to 99 m/s. If a 100% webber that slows your ship down to 0 m/s, it means that the 100% webber is 99% more powerfull than the 1% webber.

As the web strenght number increases, then the % stronger number go lower. A 90% webber is 80% more powerfull than a 50% webber. A 90% webber is 200% more powerfull than a 30% webber as 30 m/s lower on a 100 m/s ship +200% = 90 that will be the m/s loss on the 90% webber.

EDIT: And no, you do this totally wrong.

If your ship is doing 757 m/s with an ab. It will do 75.7 m/s after a 90% web. It will do 302,8 m/s after one 60% web. It does 121,12 m/s after 2x 60% webs. And it does 48,448 m/s after 3x 60% webs. Basicly, you takes 757 m/s and minus it with 60% that will be 302,8 m/s. After that, you takes 302,8 m/s and minus it with another 60% and so on as the one webber slows you 60% down and then the next one will slow you another 60% down, so 302.8 m/s minus 60% again is 121,12 m/s. That's how the web strenght works.

So as i said earlier, it would be a little over 2 times stronger if we calculate on how many extra webbers you need. But like i have said, that's not how you calculate on how more powerfull a 90% web is over a 60% web.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Saeger1737
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#460 - 2013-12-05 16:20:25 UTC
Consider this, vindicator, vigilant, and daredevils, all use blasters and rails(if your dumb) which are short range guns, a scram is a short range point, and the web if factioned out can reach 20km. All this means is that these ships have to be in range when by themselves to be effective, but these ships are not normally by themselves.

A ship should only be nerfed based on the solo ability not the use with logi support and interceptors.

On top of this point I have a feeling they just want to conform all ships to do the same thing, resulting in making eve boring. Catering to the noob makes the game undesirable, and as such conformity would ruin all the uniqueness of the game, and the ships fielded.

MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!