Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes, but what was the objective of you saying that I'm "still able to sell them". I've always been able to sell them afaik.
The problem is it worth 200 mil less now because of a dev comment.

no

Dread's don't need vindi's to hit cruisers. They just need the opportune moment. All a vindi does is provide an increase to the window that moment can fall in.

.... Kick 90% webs in the nads :-P

I would rejigger/take a look at webs as a whole. While at it, take a look at the webbing drones also (those things are useless). I would think 90% webs would be achievable with both webbing and those drones, but just out of a officer mod and the bonus of a ship..

I see there intention, the fear is the rise of the nano ship... again.

Eitherway.

Anyway, the problem with 90% webs is that the bonus making them is an outright lie.

The way the bonus is written, 90% webs should be 50% stronger than 60% webs. This isnt true. 90% webs are either 300% stronger than 60% webs, 400% stronger than 60% webs, or infinity times stronger than 60% webs, depending on how you look at it.

300% answer: 60% reduces you to 40% velocity. 90% webs reduce you to 10% velocity, and are therefore 4x as strong.

400% answer: Because of stacking penalties, it takes 5x 60% webs to match a 90% web.

infinity answer: No number of 60% webs can match 2 or more 90% webs.


So serpentis webs, if you really want them to be 50% stronger than 60% webs, should be about 75% web strength.

I have a feeling the Vindicator is going to get a fall-off bonus. In which case it might turn into something of a nano battleship. Which would be sad in terms of variety since Gallente aren't exactly short on high dps fast nano ships as it is.

Eitherway, given the limited amount of ships that actually possess 90% webs, I think it might be worthwhile looking at the individual ships.

First off, blood raiders:
1. Cruor sucks
2. Ashimmu decent solo boat but you can buy better ones for the price.
3. Bhaalgorn is a great support battleship for battlefield control and secondary tackle. Somewhat less used since the Geddon changes but still very powerful.

Lasers track bad. In terms of mitigating transversal, 90% webs on these ships will inevitably be less powerful than on the Serpentis line. Lasers usually win by range control so... web range bonus? Cruor and Ashimmu would be buffed tremendously as small gang/solo boats. Bhaalgorn might be a bit worse off, but more likely will still be as useful as it is now.


Serpentis line:

All ships currently viable in PvP.

A web range bonus would more or less make the DD and Vig be rail kiters and the Vindi would be a nano Null kiter. Pretty boring given the amount of Gallente ships that already do this. So as others have suggested, I think a nerf to 80% would be okay, making it slightly less effective than double non-bonussed webs (which slows stuff down by 84%). The other alternative is to prevent ships fitting double 90% webs, since that's the real issue I think a lot of pilots have. Double 90% webs = 99%. Your target ship is going 1% of its max speed lol.

Dear Michael,

I remember when you zoomed around in rifters in MH and I very much respect your PVP and theorycrafting.
However, for the sake of math, logic and argumentation, your poitn is flawed.
the bonus is written correctly.

The BONUS ON THE WEBS is 50% stronger.
the effect on the ship is ALSO 50% stronger. (100% speed -> 40% speed vs 100% speed -> 10% speed)


I can follow your logic, and I see your point. But your numbers and arguments are wrong this time, Michael.
Saying that they are 3x/4x as strong is plain wrong.

My point is that there is a difference between :
"I am only 1/4 as fast under the effects of bonused webs than under the effects of unbonused ones"
and
"bonused webs slow me down 4 times as much"

The difference is 50%, the application is not additive, it's multiplicative on the % value not on the speed.

Ignoring the rest of the hulls in this debate, for the sake of brevity(once written, I realize brevity is not achieved, but this only looks at 1 ship) I want focus on the vindi, a ship I am used to and very fond of.

As it stands the vindi has the highest paper DPS of any sub capital. To achieve this(guns only) the pilot must use void. Void has a penalty to tracking and has a terrible range. Webs, tracking enhancers and tracking computers help apply dps.

Vindis are used in PVP and PVE, and before any debate on proposed changes to the ship it would be interesting to see the statistics on its use in both. I have a feeling its use in PVE out weighs its use in PVP, since it is a mainstay of incursion fleets and WH fleets, but is not a wide scale doctrine ship in any of the major null blocks. It certainly is no drake. In PVP fleets, it tends to be used in highly skilled and specialized gangs, under very specific circumstance, as previously mentioned by our Suddenly Spaceship friends. It is also favored at a solo BS due to its massive DPS and ability to hold its target down without help, but again is only used effectively like this by very skilled players, as a hyperion is a better choice for anyone else. The vindi is also a very killable ship.

So give us some stats to let us see where you are coming from CCP.

Use in PVP: I have never heard of the vindi being considered overpowered or broken in any discussion or thread prior to this one, so if anyone is aware of such discussion please let me know.

In PVP a vindi should be armor tanked, with whatever combo on tank and magnetic stabilizers you like. No room for tracking enhancers, so no range or tracking achieved from the lows. In the mids, prop(MWD), point/scram & web, leaving 1 slot for whatever u like, dual web? Sebo? ECCM? Or Tracking Computer. Because of its bonus to webs, a pilot with proper skills can use 1 web to achieve the effect of 2 on another brawler.

Which brings me to brawler. The Vindi is a brawler in pvp, armor tanked, extememly short ranged. It needs to have the advantage when some other ship gets close. Its Ewar bonus perfectly suits this. Without it the vindi would need at least 2 webs, and then no room for tracking computer or pooint if you want to actually point anything.

So, I do not see how changing the web bonus is a good idea, or what could adequately replace it. Certainly not something as dull and repetitive as an optimal/falloff bonus the current rebalancers seem to imaginatively think of every time they look at any ship. Without its webs the vindi is worse in pvp than a navy mega, which has more tank, high dps, and a utility high. A web nerf would lead to a severe decline in its use in pvp.

Someone mentioned a vindi being used to web cruisers for blap dreads, this may be an issue, but really a cruiser that close to a vindi doesn’t really need to have the blap dread shoot it for it to die. A gang using blap dreads will probably have loki and bhaalgorns, with their web range bonus, which is arguably a lot more useful than limited ranged stopping power of vindi web bonus. Nerfs to the tracking capabilities of Moros was aimed at this very game style was it not? Why not look at the dread as the problem in this specific use? Have them unable to target a ship of a cruiser size sig radius for example?

PVE
I think this is the real aim of a vindi web nerf. WH fleets use vindi with blap dreads, in the same vein as pvp. But it’s not exactly broken, WH life is risky and rewarding and at least they have vindi on the field where anyone can kill them. This could also be address by looking at the dread rather than the web, again how about limiting their capability to successfully lock small targets?
Incursions have led to a huge use of pirate hulls, the vindi being the DPS king and its webs are crucial to the current fleet meta, as they maximize the entire fleets DPS. A nerf of the vindi webs would be an indirect nerf on PVE income. And CCP want us to have fun together in fleets don't they? So why nerf fleet PVE.


Perhaps a change in the bonus toward the range bonus the bhaalgorn has would be the most palatable compromise, (with a tiny advantage per level in stopping power also), but keep in mind that this would inevitably lead a total Null using and probably nano vindi. It would also then leave the Bhaal’s only unique bonus being neuting power and its spectacular name.

Giving it more fall off and opti will make it encroach into the Nightmares realm of flexible range dps, taking away for the NM uniqueness.

It already has a tracking bonus so can’t add that instead….it is a problem child.

In both PVP and PVE, the vindi is lethal to anything in its web range, killing frigs to BS. It can anti tackle and once close throw large dps on big targets. How will this balance be maintained? It has a unique role afterall.

Everyone has a favorite ship, the vindi is mine, I love it, and I am very afraid of the consequences of sweeping changes to it.

To have an informed debate we need to know more details of the use of these web bonuses and where they are considered too powerful. This needs to be addressed by a CCP response, and since there are both PVE and PVP applications, generally stating that they are over powered will not do.


As it stands the this nerf is stupid and unnecessary, please refrain from destroying the vindi.

Also, CCP Rise, have the balls to post on this thread, even if you want to disrespect your customers and 'troll' us. Post on twitter about this thread are adding insult to injury.

There are moments when I look at F&I forum stickies, and I am inclined to agree with that post.