Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Problem with the argument of "properly applied eWar .. yadayada" is that it applies to everything, that is it not Serpentis specific. The fact that something has a counter means very little in the grand scheme of things. Everything, broken or otherwise, has a counter .. what points out the broken bits is that the counters become increasingly specific the higher the degree of breakage.

All you need do to verify that statement is read through the various threads that led up to previous nerf rounds of everything from Nos to ECM to Angel hulls. The narrower and more specialized counter needed for a given "feature" the harder the bat hits.

God web on Serpentis is fine but their needs to be vulnerabilities beyond the generic "range" thing that is applicable to all ..

PS: If you think you have defeated a Vindicator by getting to 20km then have fun when overload and links come into play. Solo, particularly in bling, has gone from being the norm to a rare thing indeed .. courtesy of 800+ Titans with nothing to do in between bridging freighters to/from Jita (gross simplification to make a point ).

And let go of our righteous indignation and paranoia .. you cannot be serious!

Best thing I have read here so far is the Suddenly Spaceships vindi fleet !

That sounds like so much fun! I wanna play with you guys someday maybe!

Respect for that.

To all the people out there spouting this crap: you spent 1.2 billion on it. So what? Do you know why it cost 1.2 billion? Because there is demand, not because CCP made it cost that much. Did you know the method of acquisition for a Rattlesnake is almost exactly the same? Yet it costs a mere 420m, less than most Navy faction Battleships. Now why is it that a Pirate hull is so cheap? Oh, because of demand. Nobody wants a Rattlesnake, so they're incredibly cheap compared to a Vindicator.

Price is somewhat moderated by CCP by the amount of minerals used to construct the hull and the method of acquisition of the blueprint, but more so than that it's moderated by how strong the hull itself is and by an extension of that, the demand for the ship. I assure you that the Vindicator wouldn't cost 1 billion if it were as bad as the Rattlesnake. So next time you spout that trash about "Waah! It cost me 1.2b, it should be super OP and let me instawin against everything." take that into consideration.

Now we can see that most people understand there should be balance, and I'm fine with the webs. Hell, I enjoy flying a Vindicator. I simply want people to understand that it's 1.2 billion because it's strong, not it's strong because it's 1.2 billion.

Same thing goes for the hundreds of millions of ISK in modules. Supply and demand (demand being very much affected by strength of a module/ship) controls the pricing. Pricing does not determine the strength.

Even if they do get removed. You still have the Rapier & Loki. Yes, this means you must take rapiers and or lokis in as an EWAR ship in fleets. The thought! Forcing a balance to fleet compositions to use multiple hull-class ships to complete a full fleet doctrine. Kind of like having a support fleet for supers.

Why do we bother having forums then?

Not all fleet comps are designed to be multiple classes though. This largely depends on their purpose. You wouldn't bring a rapier anyway. It should be loki's and proteii(proteus'?), to come close to matching the survivability and damage profiles of a faction/navy BS fleet. I can't speak for everyone else, and I'm not going to go into specifics about what we use and how we use it, but a rapier/arazu/lach/huginn just doesn't do the job. As any pirate alliance, we take what targets we can get, but given the choice, we want the fight. Failing that, we'll take the gank. OFC the fight we think we can win, but the fight all the same. And in that fight, when we get it, recons just melt. For smaller, faster fleets, recons are great. Their mobility over the heavy T3 and BS fleets is a great advantage in those situations. But for the role Navy/Pirate BS fall into, mobility isn't so much the key as staying power, and ability to give as much or more than you get.



For me personally, the point of posting in this thread at all has been to keep the serpentis bonus on the serpentis ships. It's a strong, unique bonus, but not an indomitable force either(reasons all over every page of this thread). Further, these Pirate BS DO require two fully trained BS skills to be fully used. As the thread has evolved, I've very much agreed with the statements that some of the other Pirate ships need some serious love. There is no point in flying a vigilant. Not when a Thorax will do similar damage for 1/10th the price(or a proteus more with considerably more tank for a bit more), or a loki will do similar webbing with significantly more tank, for not too much more either. The Ashimmu is a fun ship in the 1 to 2 situations it's useful for, but a curse or pilgrim will do pretty much the same, if in slightly different ways. I don't fly phantasm's or gila's, but based on how little I see them, I'd imagine they need a discerning eye as well. These traits are echoed in the frigates, perhaps even more pronounced. In the BS class, the vindi, mach and bhaal are some pretty fierce ships. I've heard some statement that the bhaal needs some work. That's not been my experience, but brainstorming never hurts. The Nightmare and Rattlesnake DO need some work for sure. Removing the web bonus from the serpentis ships will just make them shinier versions of ships we already have. That is something that needs to be avoided. Concerns of power creep are well founded(Titan proliferation), but to nerf finely tuned ships for it is a bit too far, IMO.



There is also the two sides to the 'cost' concern. On the one hand, cost isn't a direct draw back. On the other hand, it's certainly a viable consideration, given that most of the theoretical numbers tossed around assume proper fits(read: faction Fits). It's completely true to say the vindi's significantly higher price is mostly due to demand, which is based on the ships popularity, which is based on it's potential. I don't think it can be completely ruled out, but it shouldn't be the trump card to rule all others either. SP is as much if not more factor to be considered.


All in all, This has been a very good thread, IMO. Both sides of the coin seem to be well represented, and there appears to have been a response from CCP concerning it, based on consistent feed back. THAT was the point.

At least you can still sell it...

If CCP implements a new AoE module that cripples other ship's agility and gives a significant bonus to the Vindicator hull I won't be mad about losing the web bonus.

Harnessed Singularity. Adds half (50%) the Vindicators mass to all ships within 5 km, half again (25%) within 10km .. mass-addition also applies to Vindicator itself.
* Note: This would make most sub-BS ships pointless against it.

Would be awesome if the pirate lines had some exclusive modules available to them such as above, removes the reason to OP them as their pirate advantage would lie in the exploitation of the "specials" rather than the insane double digit % EHP/Tank/++.

Anything that doesn't leave them as is, as super-charged base T1 with a single gimmick to differentiate them.

I think they hired John Romero instead so EVE could make us their b*tch.