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[Proposal] Fix wardec exploits
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The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#1 - 2011-11-04 20:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: The Zerg Overmind
Change the game mechanics to make wardec exploits impossible. There are a number of exploits currently possible that are abused on a regular basis which are easy to fix:

1.) Changing corporations while in space while next to a war target to surprise them, or to get them concorded.
Fix - While in lowsec/highsec prevent members from joining/leaving a corporation while it's at war if they're in space and a war target is in system.

2.) Wardecced corporations may join and leave an alliance to escape any wardec. This is commonly used to save reinforced towers without the attackers having any chance.
Fix - There is much debate how to fix this. Possibilities include corporations do not drop wardecs upon leaving alliance. Corporations with reinforced towers take longer to drop wardecs. An added delay for corporations to leave their alliance if at war, etc.

3.) Dec Shields (a dec shield is when you have many alt corporations wardec your shielded corp such that any future incoming wardec costs against you will be inflated substantially). These are fine if the incoming wardecs are actually being paid (as then it actually costs ISK to maintain, but that's not how they're used. You can toggle a war mutual right before the bill comes and the incoming attacker does not have to pay for that week, and then untoggle mutual to restore the shield. This allows dec shields of infinite size to be maintained for free, while still costing new attacks much money.
Fix - If a war is set to unmutual then the aggressor has to pay the bill within X time or the war is declared invalid.

4.) A corporation that has left an alliance cannot be wardecced until after the next downtime.
Fix - A corporation that has left an alliance can be wardecced.

5.) Corporations join an alliance 24.5hrs before their tower comes out of reinforced. Alliance fleet surrounds enemy fleet who then instantly becomes valid war targets without any warning. This is a version of #1.
Fix - When a corporation you're at war with is accepted into an alliance it sends a warning message that the war will carry over to X alliance in 24hrs.


These have been known issues for many years and recently 2-5 have been declared legal because they fired a good portion of their GM team and didn't want to regulate them. Fixing these issues by changing the game mechanics will eliminate the need for GM intervention and help reduce costs to CCP while restoring some much needed balance to obvious bugs/exploits.

I have been offering free wardec removal to any corporation in efforts to bring attention to the situation. There is no reason what I do should be legal.


Here is a graphical representation of the exploit that is now possible

Burn Highsec Griefers
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#2 - 2011-11-04 21:03:46 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
1.) Changing corporations while in space while next to a war target to surprise them, or to get them concorded.
Fix - While in lowsec/highsec prevent members from joining/leaving a corporation while it's at war if they're in space and a war target is in system.


This is currently considered a petitionable exploit.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
2.) Wardecced corporations may join and leave an alliance to escape any wardec. This is commonly used to save reinforced towers without the attackers having any chance.
Fix - There is much debate how to fix this. Possibilities include corporations do not drop wardecs upon leaving alliance. Corporations with reinforced towers take longer to drop wardecs. An added delay for corporations to leave their alliance if at war, etc.


My solution is that wardecs should follow whatever entity they are applied to. If you wardec an alliance, then corps dropping from the alliance can escape the war. If you wardec a corp INSIDE an alliance, that corp can drop from the alliance so that the rest of the alliance gets out of the war. If you dec an independent corp and they join an alliance, the war is extended to alliance members while remaining active on the corp. If the corp drops or is kicked, the dec STAYS with the corp and the alliance loses the wardec.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
3.) Dec Shields (a dec shield is when you have many alt corporations wardec your shielded corp such that any future incoming wardec costs against you will be inflated substantially). These are fine if the incoming wardecs are actually being paid (as then it actually costs ISK to maintain, but that's not how they're used. You can toggle a war mutual right before the bill comes and the incoming attacker does not have to pay for that week, and then untoggle mutual to restore the shield. This allows dec shields of infinite size to be maintained for free, while still costing new attacks much money.
Fix - If a war is set to unmutual then the aggressor has to pay the bill within X time or the war is declared invalid.


Better fix: A mutual war remains so for a full billing cycle. If you're going to declare mutual, you'd better be ready to commit.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
4.) A corporation that has left an alliance cannot be wardecced until after the next downtime.
Fix - A corporation that has left an alliance can be wardecced.


Seems rather obvious to me.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
5.) Corporations join an alliance 24.5hrs before their tower comes out of reinforced. Alliance fleet surrounds enemy fleet who then instantly becomes valid war targets without any warning. This is a version of #1.
Fix - When a corporation you're at war with is accepted into an alliance it sends a warning message that the war will carry over to X alliance in 24hrs.


Again, this is a petitionable exploit. I got this explanation when I asked a GM about a warning I received shortly after the "no wardec exploits" post:

"That is considered an exploit as that gives other players no chance to see if you are an enemy or not. However if you change corps while docked in a station that is not considered an exploit."

I was told in the same conversation that this rule is a stopgap until the problem is patched.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-11-04 21:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
*stuff*


Other than the obvious.... CCP made their point quite clear....they will no longer consider war dec evasion tactics a punnishable offense.

Petition if you think its an exploit....otherwise your waisting your breath.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
I have been offering free wardec removal to any corporation in efforts to bring attention to the situation. There is no reason what I do should be legal.


Your complaining about something your doing?

Then why continue doing it? This is confusing.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#4 - 2011-11-04 21:27:56 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Your complaining about something your doing?

Then why continue doing it? This is confusing.

One of the best ways to bring attention to game-breaking loopholes is to abuse them so badly the developers HAVE to fix it.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-04 21:43:09 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Your complaining about something your doing?

Then why continue doing it? This is confusing.

One of the best ways to bring attention to game-breaking loopholes is to abuse them so badly the developers HAVE to fix it.



thats like begging to get banned.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#6 - 2011-11-06 01:01:31 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
thats like begging to get banned.


In the Skunkworks, we collect warnings by finding new things that haven't been labelled exploits.

CCP has specifically said that they won't be considering *most* wartime corp and alliance shenanigans to be exploits. This means that if we want them to fix those mechanics with a patch, we need to abuse the hell out of them until the pressure to fix them pushes them to high priority.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Ms Twitch
Brittas Empire
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2011-11-07 02:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Twitch
The Zerg Overmind wrote:

2.) Wardecced corporations may join and leave an alliance to escape any wardec. This is commonly used to save reinforced towers without the attackers having any chance.
Fix - There is much debate how to fix this. Possibilities include corporations do not drop wardecs upon leaving alliance. Corporations with reinforced towers take longer to drop wardecs. An added delay for corporations to leave their alliance if at war, etc.


Since leaving a corp or alliance to escape a war dec is legal, I don't see why it should not apply when it comes to saving towers, as long as it's done a way that is legal and within the rules of the game,
Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#8 - 2011-11-08 14:56:29 UTC
Be careful what you ask for. If CCP revisits the war-dec system, they may not just close a few loopholes, but overhaul war-dec mechanics entirely. This may or may not be to your advantage, depending on your play style.

Also, you forgot the biggest war dec exploit of all ... hiding your ISK-earning high sec alts in NPC corporations.
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#9 - 2011-11-08 16:40:12 UTC
Quote:
Wardecs have always been and will always be pointless. As long as they follow the corp and not the player, they can and will be evaded. In effect, this means wardecs affect only people who care about their corp name, have a POS they can't take down quickly, and the clueless. Any change to wardecs that makes them against individuals will lead to those people leaving the game. They don't want to fight. They aren't going to fight. There is nothing you or CCP can do to make them. Period. The End. There is no fix for wardecs. Just get rid of them. Ganking is, was, and will always be the only way to get individuals.

The only failing of the change to wardec policing by the GMs is POS destruction. The only solutions that are needed are ones that make POS bashing in hisec possible.

Quoting myself from another thread.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#10 - 2011-11-16 10:11:37 UTC
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#11 - 2011-11-16 11:13:06 UTC
Signed. CCP absolutely has to ******* stop changing the rules because they can't be bothered to fix ****

Dutarro wrote:
Also, you forgot the biggest war dec exploit of all ... hiding your ISK-earning high sec alts in NPC corporations.


I have no problem with this. They pay an 11% tax for that immunity. Wanting to "have their cake and eat it to" or "I am a highsec bear, I am ENTITLED!!" needs to end.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Goose99
#12 - 2011-11-16 15:58:10 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
whine & butthurtOops


U MAD BRO?

Working as intended. Go to lowsec.Bear
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-11-16 18:12:21 UTC
Start charging 10 to 50 Mil a shot and youd make it a profitble business and not likely to whine about this crap. @ OP Twisted

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The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#14 - 2011-11-16 18:30:49 UTC
Dec Shield has received enough generous donations to break even with operating costs for the foreseeable future already. We were gifted with a Bhaalgorn, and around 100mil in smaller donations from assorted sources. We were originally going to make Dec Shield a paid service, but decided we wanted as many people to use it at possible, and isk was never an issue. And while I appreciate you bumping the thread Goose99 you seem to be lacking the reading comprehension to understand what we're doing here. We're not fighting these wars, we're making sure others can't.

Burn Highsec Griefers
Myxx
The Scope
#15 - 2011-11-16 20:34:05 UTC
I support making highsec less safe and removing this loophole with an overhaul to the criminal flagging and war systems.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-11-17 21:06:18 UTC
An easy solution to war dec greifing.


A corp or alliance has to have an in space destroyable resource to declare war on another corp or alliance. Pos, or TCU. This asset becomes broadcast to the other party involved in a wardec. And the asset can only be used in one wardec at a time. if you wish to wardec more than one organization, additional assets need to be allocated for declaration.

If the said target is destroyed, then the war dec is over at that instant. if in the case of an alliance. If the corp that owns that resource leaves the alliance, the war dec follows the tower or TCU.

This could be expanded further, to high sec and null sec war decs. but null sec would need a lot more "resources" and give and take to make it useful.

This will allow the receiving corp/alliance an opportunity to turn the tables on a corp or alliance that declares war only to turtle up in a station. let the organization declaring war put up something of value as a risk.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-11-17 21:36:26 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
An easy solution to war dec greifing.


A corp or alliance has to have an in space destroyable resource to declare war on another corp or alliance.



It's called your ship/pod.

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Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-11-17 21:58:54 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
An easy solution to war dec greifing.


A corp or alliance has to have an in space destroyable resource to declare war on another corp or alliance.



It's called your ship/pod.


well, until the door opens and i can hunt you down in station, that's not a viable option to hurt a turtle.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-11-17 22:58:20 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
An easy solution to war dec greifing.


A corp or alliance has to have an in space destroyable resource to declare war on another corp or alliance.



It's called your ship/pod.


well, until the door opens and i can hunt you down in station, that's not a viable option to hurt a turtle.


Your missing the point.

War Decs happen to specifically take your ship and pod down.

Everything else is just the means to an end.

If you havn't figured that out yet....you have no business posting your ideas to attempt to solve this so called paradox.

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Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-11-17 23:13:57 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
An easy solution to war dec greifing.


A corp or alliance has to have an in space destroyable resource to declare war on another corp or alliance.



It's called your ship/pod.


well, until the door opens and i can hunt you down in station, that's not a viable option to hurt a turtle.


Your missing the point.

War Decs happen to specifically take your ship and pod down.

Everything else is just the means to an end.

If you havn't figured that out yet....you have no business posting your ideas to attempt to solve this so called paradox.


You can do that without a wardec, just ask the goonies and all the blue ice miners in empire.
i don't miss the point, i get the point that its currently a way for cowards and greifers to get their rocks off. Whats the matter, don't like the mark fighting back? well tough. Carebears have teeth, and when you figure that out, you run and hide, and we want our chance to bite back, were hungry for your pod too. but concord wont let us crack you out of a station, so, no risk, no reward as you PvP'rs like to say.
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