Ships & Modules

First, let me say I don't consider myself to be the end-all-beat-all source on the way things work in EVE, nor would I say my experience encompasses entirely the slew of scenarios as to how things work and how things SHOULD work. I would appreciate any input from fellow players and forum users on anything I have discussed here as I will be the first to admit I have not seen, experienced, or "lived" as much of this game as I would like. In other words, while I can comment on many things I have discovered from my own, personal experience, I fully admit some of the things I am about to discuss come from second-hand information, especially in the field of large fleet pvp and its use of capital vessels. Still, I feel reading forum posts, websites, watching videos, and examining killboards paints a pretty good picture of how it works. It is also a worthwhile to mention I never expect ALL of the suggestions in here to be applied to increase hybrid turret viability and popularity. There is no doubt, applying ALL suggestions people make would quickly turn hybrid turrets into the "i-win" button of EVE, and this is not what I want to happen. If anything, I hope the reader walks away from this article with the notion that SOME of these changes are what is needed, certainly not all.

In addition, I absolutely appreciate the recent efforts made by CCP, specifically the "getting back to basics" attitude which has taken hold recently, due to some relatively recent events which resulted in a significantly disgruntled playerbase *cough*. I also believe the immediate addressing of hybrid turrets is a direct result of this attitude. Unfortunately, I get the impression CCP does not understand why anything needs to be done in the first place. This is clearly evident in the changes proposed. Having said this, I would like to point out: listening to the playerbase to give you incentive to change things doesn't stop after deciding to act on its harsh mood. More to the point, if you're going to do something, do it right [by giving heavy consideration to threads such as this one], and if you're willing you admit you've made a mistake by either ignoring the players or failing to communicate to the players, DO NOT REPEAT YOUR MISTAKE JUST AFTER REALIZING THE MISTAKE! :)

Anyway, enough of that crap.

I don't think there is any doubt hybrid turrets need some serious work to not only make them viable, but a desirable, and even an optimal choice when choosing it as a weapons platform, given a certain set of criteria. Killboards, alliance tournaments, player feedback, and market activity clearly show hybrid turrets are not popular. This should result in two questions:

-Why aren't hybrid turrets popular?
-What can be done to change this?

In a nutshell, the first question has an easy answer. Hybrids don't provide any fundamental benefit to the pilot in its application. Yes, hybrids are the only weapon that provide a combination of kinetic and thermal damage. Yes, blasters have the highest base damage of all weapon systems in the game. However, real-eve-world application of these turrets quickly prove to be largely ineffective when compared to their projectile and laser counterparts. This is why they are not popular.

In regards to the second question, I fully admit, providing pliable answers is NOT an easy thing because it involves several auxillary conditions and restrictions, but this is why I am taking time to lay it all out as best I can.

II. Hybrids do not benefit as much from auxillary devices as much as their turret counterparts.

This is a more complicated perspective on the problem, but I think once this segment is read and understood, the statement is hard to dispute. The best way I can do is to simply list "auxillary devices" and why hybrids literally fall short.

-Ships: I'm happy to see CCP propose speed and agility increases to Gallente ships because it means they understand the problem doesn't entirely lay with hybrid turrets. However, it seems like the concept of Minmatar ships being the fastest ships in the game is something CCP refuses to change, and that is simply unacceptable. I haven't tested any of the proposed changes but I don't think I need to either. It's quite clear to me if hybrids are to maintain their effective ranges, then they need to be on the fastest ships in the game. It's that simple. Looking at the proposed changes, Minmatar ships will still fly circles around Gallente ships from ranges and speeds which hybrids can't be effective, thus addressing the problem still falls too short of the goal. Amarr and Gallente ships are now somewhat matched in speed and controlling fighting range, but Amarr still have the advantage of applying scorch damage at longer ranges and switching to conflaguration instantly once shorter ranges are at play. What is key here however, is the Amarr ship is still fully capable of maintaining effective ranges for scorch; armor speed penalties will prevent Gallente ships from significantly closing the gap on Amarr ships.

-Ammo: It wasn't long ago when projectile turrets received an overhaul for being largely ineffective as well. The overhaul addressed the viability of ammo: a dramatic change to the types available, expanding their versatility as well as significant increase to a projectile turret's fully-loaded capacity. I think it's safe to say hybrids require a very similar effort into its ammo types, but more so, hybrids require specific attention PARTICULARLY to T2 ammo for both railguns and blasters. Null ammo is still a joke; nothing compared to scorch and barrage. Void is OK, but again, the base range stats of blasters are so poor, it's virtually useless, too.

-Tracking enchancers, tracking comps, rigs and implants which boost range: a pilot who chooses to enhance effective range of hybrid turrets does not get the benefit of having to boost only falloff (like a pilot using projectiles) or only optimal (like a pilot using lasers). Hybrid users must boost both, which means not only do they have to chase down twice as many things which boost range, but the actual numbers which boost the range aren't applied to large numbers, thus the bonus applied isn't as great. I'll use the hardest-hitting T2 medium short range turrets as an example, accepting optimal + falloff as the effective range. I will also apply 50% increases (or in EVE terms, a 1.5x multiplier) to a single range stat: optimal or falloff, whichever results in the greatest effective range, then I will apply that same bonuses to both optimal and falloff:

III. Current hybrid turrets can provide benefits, however, they are not in tune with the playability, mindset, or philosophy of EVE Online.

This may seem a little strange to encounter in a forum post which is, at its core, a "BUFF HYBRIDS!@&%@!$" plea, but I want to show I am doing my best to be objective about the whole thing.

Imagine for a moment EVE had several locations where pilots have to navigate a labyrinth of tunnels in very large asteroids, or on small moons. These tunnels are rarely longer than 30km in any single/straight stretch before bending into another stretch of tunnel or being a dead end altogether. These tunnels are not very wide either, no more than 10km in diameter. Also imagine these tunnels prevented weapon systems from operating WITHOUT line of sight; that is to say, you pretty much have to be in the same straight stretch of tunnel as your target in order to shoot it. Imagine HUNDREDS of these tunnels interconnected to form a very complicated, twisty subterranean maze. Now ask yourself if hybrids would be worth using in such circumstances.

Obviously, the above scenario doesn't exist in EVE, and the only thing which comes close is station camping, but I think it's safe to say a weapon system is in pretty poor shape when the BEST it can offer, and frankly the ONLY thing it can offer, is an edge in dogfights where all the participants are in docking range. And frankly, I think the advantage is not only marginal, but largely debatable.

Even more so, the design of Gallente/Caldari ships in addition to hybrid turret short-comings means, quite frankly, engaging a ship in combat is an "ALL OR NOTHING" transaction. You are absolutely risking everything you have on that engagement, because it's unlikely the opposing ship of equal size will be slower than you. In other words, in such a scenario, the defender has two options: attempt to run away OR maintain the engagement. Not only does he have these two options, but simply HAVING the two options means the pilot can change his mind at several points during the fight. Blaster users very very rarely get these two options, and because of this, they very very rarely get to change their mind.

If anyone at CCP is STILL lost as to what the problems with hybrid turrets are, or how to possibly address them, please pay PARTICULAR attention to this, and for those of you who know nothing about firearms, just skip it.

Imagine for a moment it's midnight we have a bird's eye view of a perfectly flat desert. The field and range of vision on this desert is great, essentially there are zero obstructions between any relevant points on this desert. There is a straight, stretch of road on this desert, running east-west, which is two kilometers long (damn euros!), and there is a soldier stationed at each kilometer marker. At kilometer marker zero, on the east end of the road, is a soldier who is armed with a 300 winchester magnum, semi-automatic hunting rifle. In the middle of the road, at the one/middle kilometer marker, is a soldier armed with a 500 S&W revolver, which by the way, is probably the only handgun in the world which can easily kill any land-roaming creature on earth. At the west end of the road, the two kilometer marker, is a soldier armed with a scoped 7.62x51 NATO bolt-action sniper rifle, along with tracer rounds, incendiary rounds, and armor-piercing rounds.

Only one soldier is allowed to leave the desert alive, and they are all aware of this. Shooting starts simultaneously at sun-up.

The answers aren't necessary, but the questions are absolutely paramount:

-who is at the biggest disadvantage, even before a shot is fired? Why?
-can you say with absolute certainty who will make it out alive? Why or why not?
-who represents the projectile turret?
-who represents the laser turret?
-who represents the hybrid turret?

Now that I've laid this out: if you happen to work for CCP and have been assisting in making hybrid turrets a more palatable weapons platform, yet you have no idea what I have just described to you, get off whatever team/effort/position put you there in the first place, and find someone at CCP who CAN make some sense of this. You are not qualified make any pertinent decisions regarding turrets or their use. Moving on....



IV. Some players can hinder the effort of buffing hybrids turrets to a viable and desirable state.

Yes. You. Stop Talking. Stop telling people increasing damage on hybrids is the only thing they need, for you have clearly overlooked all of the other problems: lacking short range, crappy ammunition options, no unique traits, slower ships...they are many.Stop saying you are happy with the agility and speed buffs, because you didn't take the time to look at Minmatar ships and realize the changes are effectively moot, all the while, hybrids will retain all of their handicaps and still provide no unique benefit to the pilot. Stop saying the tracking increases to blasters is sufficient as you must be a Gallente pilot who has, somehow, never flown a blaster boat with a web. Stop saying the marginal increases to railgun damage are sufficient because you obviously have never flown a Maelstrom, Abaddon, and Hyperion, all fit for long range combat, all within hours of each other. Stop saying you weren't aware hybrids were deficient in any way, because you also failed to mention the only thing you shoot are NPCs. Stop saying hybrids are weaker by design because Gallente have drones, for you have not only admitted to ignoring the lacking fitting stats and the lacking bonuses of drone boats, but you have also successfully:

-ignored, selectively, the limitations put forth on droneboats via bandwidth.
-forgotten the significant nerfing of the Myrmidon/Moros and the unforgiving disembowelment of the Eos.
-slapped the proverbial face of Caldari pilots.

Just stop talking.

TLDR;

Posting in a Gallente whine-thread.
Hybrids are getting buffed, but aren't going to be FOTM. Accept it.

It's interesting to hear you to say "Accept it," as have the exact same amount of skillpoints spent in hybrids, lasers, and projectiles. You must have missed the point.

Needs a TL;DR version without the reasoning. We all are familiar with the reasoning. Break it down or the ideas will be lost to short attention spans. (Oooooo.... shiny....)

Honestly! I didn't read anything you wrote. Other than the Topic, to be honest. Can you summarize this whole thing for the mentally challenge (people like me)?


Thank you!

LOL.
Is this the same Naomi that was always arguing against a projectile buff two years ago?
And always chimes in to nerf all thing Minmitar?

Where did the bad Brutor touch you?

Agreed, certainly should not have occured to the degree that it did, at least. But, I doubt it'll be changed again now. May as well bring everything else to its level.

tl;dr


Lies.