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Regarding E-YJ8G last night

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2013-11-23 14:06:52 UTC
Did anyone even bother to inform CCP the fight was going to happen?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-11-23 14:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Whining about TiDi if you've never experienced a pre-TiDi fleet fight should be a bannable offense.

Is it The Final Solution? Obviously not, and CCP is well aware of that. Is it miles ahead of anything else we have right now? Definitely.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#23 - 2013-11-23 14:22:07 UTC
The solution is obvious.

People answer to incentives, but bad peformance is not incentive enough to stop piling every last possible ship on grid.

So, a incentive to stop piling ships on grid must be provided.

The war against poor performance in big battles is lost beforehand. No matter how much CCP raises the cap, every faction will try to outnumber the others and all combined will bring down the server.

So stop it altogether. Quality of experience is preferable to quantity of players bored to death as their game plays without them.

My suggestion: improve as much as possible the performance of 4,000 ships battles and add stacking penalties to fleet size and force proportion (that is, big fleets and fleets that massively outpower others will suffer increasingly harsh penalties).

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-11-23 14:29:25 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Hiya folks, just a quick post about the node death that prematurely ended the fighting in E-YJ8G.

Technical investigation is ongoing, but it's clear that there was some run-away processing that took over 5 minutes of un-interrupted CPU time to complete. Our cluster is set up to assume that any node that is unresponsive for more than 3 minutes is dead and is removed forcefully from the cluster so that the show may go on elsewhere.

We're investigating why exactly that spike in execution happened and I'm hopeful we can knock it back in line. We'll be able to share more details of what exactly happened once a fix is deployed.

Just reimbuse everyhting and its fine.

Send me isk im poor
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-11-23 14:46:02 UTC
It's nice to see that CCP is investigating the node crash, I also hope that we will get some more information on node crashes and maybe some more information of what is going on at CCP when a huge fight like that is happening (do you have an alarm going on or is hilmar getting a text in the middle of the night? tell us! :P ).

A massive issue however is the fact that MOST supers and carriers spawned far away* from the fight after the node crash, thus unable to recall/reconnect drones and fighterbombers.

Also SOME carriers logged back in where they crashed and therefore died with us being unable to reach them because all of a sudden we were 20 AU offgrid and we couldn't get back on grid to rep him because of bubbles.

These are some question we need to get addressed by CCP, and possibly explained to WHY they happen.


* I for myself was in a Nyx and I seemed to have spawned with other Nyx's of my Alliance, so we got clustered up by alliance and ship types? Some others in my alliance were claiming that they got moved to a grid with all their corp members.
Razzor Death
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-11-23 14:47:29 UTC
I think you really need to change how drones work, at least mechanically. If dropping 10 sentries really just dropped 1 sentry that did the damage of a combined 10 then you would cut so much load off the server. In the era of carrier sentries now each individual is dropping 2 persons worth of drones. And before some butt flustered N3 guy comes in here claiming I am blaming them for the problems I am not, its just the only angle I can see where improvements could be easily made.
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-11-23 14:51:49 UTC
Razzor Death wrote:
I think you really need to change how drones work, at least mechanically. If dropping 10 sentries really just dropped 1 sentry that did the damage of a combined 10 then you would cut so much load off the server. In the era of carrier sentries now each individual is dropping 2 persons worth of drones. And before some butt flustered N3 guy comes in here claiming I am blaming them for the problems I am not, its just the only angle I can see where improvements could be easily made.


I am totally agreeing with you here.
Sentries should be clustered into 1 drone with 10 times* the EHP and 10 times* the damage output, but the damage output is going to be depending on the HItpoints of the drones (so if the sentry drone only has 50 % of its hitpoints left, DPS is decreased to 50%, forcing capital pilots to actually rep their drones).
The same should probably apply to all drone doctrines, instead of launching 5 separate sentries, only launch one (and maybe if you really have a drone fetish, build a new animation where a sentry drone looks like it has 5 guns?).



*assuming racial carrier 5 trained, this could be factored in as a bonus on the ship (instead of number of drones launched).
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#28 - 2013-11-23 14:52:42 UTC
Ting Mei wrote:
Veritas,

The problem is not only the node crash, but the TiDi system.

Even if we are all ok that is better to have TiDi than a systematic node crash as before, TiDi is really ruining the game little by little.

When you are in a fight, TIDI 10% is often activated, but the problem, is our brain not at 10%, and TIDI offer all the time for reinforcement to come, strategies to be discussed, etc ....

This really change the way of a fight ...

I'm very afraid CCP think TiDi is THE solution, and you are not working on something else ...

For me, don't know for others, even if on internal coms, most of players hate Tidi, that system is Ruining 0.0 fights little by little.


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#29 - 2013-11-23 15:01:05 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.

If you limit the size of a fleet or reduce the practical size you'll only end up with more fleets.

And the server can't know who's on what side in a fight.

(It appears to be an issue some players too now and then ;))

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-11-23 15:02:35 UTC
About TIDi:
Yesterday we had 800 people in I-N in Immensea killing hostile SBUs (subcaps only), we had some drone doctrines and some others, and oh look, no TiDi.

Then someone decided to launch bombs at us - and oh look, 50% TiDi. Nothing died though!

Coincidence? It's not always blobbing that causes TiDi ...
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-11-23 15:05:09 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
It was processing a standard gameplay request from a player. This was not a case of developer interaction with the node.


Was it a Cheetah??
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-11-23 15:06:56 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Ting Mei wrote:
Veritas,

The problem is not only the node crash, but the TiDi system.

Even if we are all ok that is better to have TiDi than a systematic node crash as before, TiDi is really ruining the game little by little.

When you are in a fight, TIDI 10% is often activated, but the problem, is our brain not at 10%, and TIDI offer all the time for reinforcement to come, strategies to be discussed, etc ....

This really change the way of a fight ...

I'm very afraid CCP think TiDi is THE solution, and you are not working on something else ...

For me, don't know for others, even if on internal coms, most of players hate Tidi, that system is Ruining 0.0 fights little by little.


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.


You will end up with 100 alliances in 250 different fleets of 8-16 people each, to not get nerfed.
It works with supers, it works with dreads, the only problem it wouldn't work very well with drone doctrines unless the players are more pro-active and lock targets on their own.
Bandalon
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#33 - 2013-11-23 15:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bandalon
Tidi DOES allow fights to last longer giving more opportunity to people from non-tidi systems to pile onto the battlefield at once. Which in turn might actually increase odds of a nodecrash. Of course on the other hand it also has a way of preventing them..

In that regard, tidi really sucks, because of its strategic implications and it takes away some of the hectic aspects of a fight which makes fighting less fun and exciting and turns it into watching paint dry..

Either way, this isnt all going to be fixed short-term so if this stuff isnt your thing its probably best to stay out of big battles
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#34 - 2013-11-23 15:08:18 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.

If you limit the size of a fleet or reduce the practical size you'll only end up with more fleets.

And the server can't know who's on what side in a fight.

(It appears to be an issue some players too now and then ;))


Right I chose my words poorly. I did not mean a hard cap on fleet size I meant more a hard cap on practical amounts of people to bring to a fight.

Maybe something like stacking penalties on group alpha or something. ..

Honestly I dont have the answer but I am thinking about it

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-11-23 15:09:34 UTC
Laserak wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
It was processing a standard gameplay request from a player. This was not a case of developer interaction with the node.


Was it a Cheetah??


I've seen nodes crashed using a single Cloaky Tech 3 jumping through a gate. Not sure HOW they did that, but everytime you saw a T3 decloak, not moving and being unlockable, that would lock up the node.

That was already there in 2009 and I believe this bug is still out there.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-11-23 15:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
I would in fact love a mechanic that would discourage multi-thousand man node-crashing fights (at least as long as they are node-crashing). But I have yet to see a proposal that actually works.

You can't simply penalize based on fleet size. The same group of people would just split off into multiple smaller fleets, lead from the same out-of-game comms. You won't make it undesirable to run large fleets, just more tedious.

You can't stacking penalize DPS on ships. That would only mean that even more people are needed to break the same tank and would lead to even bigger fleets to apply the same DPS.

What should happen instead is a general nerf of capital/supercapital EHP and capital repping capability. Capital reps are the reason for 1000 man fleets - you simply can't break 100 archons repping a super or a titan without either hundreds of dreads or a thousand of subcaps.
Zylithi
Four Mouseketeers
#37 - 2013-11-23 15:18:57 UTC
There's two kinds of people in this thread.

Those that lived in null before tidi, and those who didn't.

Before TiDi, the server would crush at 1000 people. By crushed, I mean... modules don't activate for 10 minutes, your ship gets blown up and you don't know for half an hour, black screens, you can't play for 3 weeks because of the petition you filed to get your ship out of between-gate limbo.

There is no magical "MOAR CPU!!!!!111ONEHUEHUE" butan that CCP can press.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#38 - 2013-11-23 15:19:37 UTC
BigSako wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ting Mei wrote:
Veritas,

The problem is not only the node crash, but the TiDi system.

Even if we are all ok that is better to have TiDi than a systematic node crash as before, TiDi is really ruining the game little by little.

When you are in a fight, TIDI 10% is often activated, but the problem, is our brain not at 10%, and TIDI offer all the time for reinforcement to come, strategies to be discussed, etc ....

This really change the way of a fight ...

I'm very afraid CCP think TiDi is THE solution, and you are not working on something else ...

For me, don't know for others, even if on internal coms, most of players hate Tidi, that system is Ruining 0.0 fights little by little.


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.


You will end up with 100 alliances in 250 different fleets of 8-16 people each, to not get nerfed.
It works with supers, it works with dreads, the only problem it wouldn't work very well with drone doctrines unless the players are more pro-active and lock targets on their own.



nerfing drones is only a stop gap messure. eventually people will figure out a way to cram more people into a system then we are back to square one.

we need to figure out either a mechanic that pulls players across multiple system to fight or something that makes it just not worth it to bring 1000's of players to just one system

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Prince Kobol
#39 - 2013-11-23 15:21:03 UTC
Don't worry guys, I am sure CCP are looking at ways of fixing null sec Sov Mechanics, TiDi, Lag and all the other null sec related issues that the player base have been asking to be fixed for years now.

I mean look at the last few years of expansion, see all that stuff in there aimed to fix or at the very least alleviate these issues.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#40 - 2013-11-23 15:29:28 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
BigSako wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Ting Mei wrote:
Veritas,

The problem is not only the node crash, but the TiDi system.

Even if we are all ok that is better to have TiDi than a systematic node crash as before, TiDi is really ruining the game little by little.

When you are in a fight, TIDI 10% is often activated, but the problem, is our brain not at 10%, and TIDI offer all the time for reinforcement to come, strategies to be discussed, etc ....

This really change the way of a fight ...

I'm very afraid CCP think TiDi is THE solution, and you are not working on something else ...

For me, don't know for others, even if on internal coms, most of players hate Tidi, that system is Ruining 0.0 fights little by little.


the only way to counter Tidi is to make deminishing returns for too much players or dps or something that makes it not worth it to bring 1000's of people to a fight... thats the problem is the blob...

i remember back in 06 when 200 people in a fight would cause black screens and node crashes now its 4000 people. the fact is they make it so you can play 4000 you guys will bring 5000 and so on... it really never ends...

there needs to be a mechanic for demishing returns.


You will end up with 100 alliances in 250 different fleets of 8-16 people each, to not get nerfed.
It works with supers, it works with dreads, the only problem it wouldn't work very well with drone doctrines unless the players are more pro-active and lock targets on their own.



something that makes it just not worth it to bring 1000's of players to just one system


Super slo-mo gameplay and node crashes aren't enough?


Remove killmails from null fights that involve more than 100 players and BAM no more 1000's that log in when the "supers tackled" call goes out. What do I win for fixing the issues?