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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#441 - 2014-02-08 19:36:38 UTC
Oh well, at least I posted a suggestion to the OP problem instead of just disagreeing with it. Blink
Sylveria Relden
#442 - 2014-02-08 19:55:14 UTC
Easily solved.

You place a buy order = your deposit amount goes into escrow till it's fulfilled. Once it's fulfilled, your deposit is moved from escrow into the wallet of the one who fulfilled the order.

End of story.

Oh wait, that doesn't allow for exploitation of the interface, does it?

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#443 - 2014-02-08 20:14:52 UTC
Holy sh*t how about just having a popup for someone who is selling to a scam order that reads "The order you were selling to was cancelled due to the buyer having insufficient funds."

That way the jackass who tries to sell x item for 500m doesn't automatically sell it for the next highest order, being 5m.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#444 - 2014-02-08 22:50:23 UTC
Simple solution instead of a security rating for the player you have in addition a trading security rating.
Failed buy orders lower the rating.
users can see the sellers "TS" rating, even if not the seller.
And make an informed choice
Big smile

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mag's
Azn Empire
#445 - 2014-02-08 23:42:43 UTC
Nelly Uanos wrote:
Oh well, at least I posted a suggestion to the OP problem instead of just disagreeing with it. Blink
So did I, but mine was based on facts and fixed the actual problem. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#446 - 2014-02-09 01:11:14 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Holy sh*t how about just having a popup for someone who is selling to a scam order that reads "The order you were selling to was cancelled due to the buyer having insufficient funds."

That way the jackass who tries to sell x item for 500m doesn't automatically sell it for the next highest order, being 5m.


The goods never dump to the next highest buy order. No warning necessary.
Jarom Rimhiux
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2014-02-09 07:38:41 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
For a fee, allow anyone to verify a market order. They simply need to right click on an order and select "verify it with the broker". If the order is legit, the broker tells you. If the order has insufficient funds backing it, the broker tells you, and cancels the order.

Make the fee a reasonable value (1m isk or something), so it is used conservatively.


I was going to troll this response. But after a moment of thought, I decided that having a "Verify Order" option in the advanced order window might actually work.

There should be a fee for this service with a limit of say 1M isk or 1%, which ever is lower. NPCs don't work for free. (Just almost for free.) Could also have a Trade skill called "Broker Relations" or something similar to reduce the fee per order. And/Or it could be based on one's standings with the station owner.

Since the margin trading scam is based on tricking someone into buying a high price and low volume item on the hope of them selling it back to the fake buy order, being able to verify the buy order before hand should allow one to know for certain if it is legit.

While this will not stop an attentive scammer from canceling the buy order as soon as the item is sold, at least the scam would be executed by an active player rather than through inaccurate/misleading market mechanics.





Something like that would work nicely. Also, error message (order couldn't be fulfilled) should be different, clearly saying that buyer has no money.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#448 - 2014-02-09 08:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Give every character a market rating like on eBay. Expressed as a percentage, it would go down every time one of their orders failed to complete for whatever reason. Players could then make the choice as to whether or not they want to accept a buy/sell order based on the issuer's rating.

You could even include an option in the market to "hide all orders where the issuer's market rating is below x%"


As this would be much better.

Also we need a way to track down people that safely live in stations 24/7 and find out who they trade with so we can take revenge on scammers in more permanent ways.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#449 - 2014-02-09 11:33:21 UTC
Any solution to trying to fix the market trading scam has to take into account the fact that characters are disposable, so security ratings, fines, all that jazz, are ineffective as nobody would scam on a non-disposable alt/account if such consequences existed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#450 - 2014-02-10 00:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
*doh* I don't know how I missed it.What?

All these trades are covered by a broker. Currently the broker is passing the buck.

The broker is responsible for fulfilling the sales contract.
The broker charges fees for this.

a margin deposit is placed with the broker for all buy orders from 100% and down depending on skill level.

If a player has a failed trade due to insufficient funds, then a margin call is made and if not met then all funds with the broker are forfeit.

Repeated failures, means the broker determines you a waste of fresh air and deletes you as a customer.
Margin trading is a privilege you earn, not a right, and that can be taken away as well as given.

Why reinvent the real world, you have a tame economist/trader make use of him to show you how to duplicate real world working systems.

Hint:- real life brokers hate wasting time and hate wasting money, simplicity is key, if the client is worthless, then take his money and get rid of him.

next!

There are Plenty more people who want to trade out there.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#451 - 2014-02-10 01:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Again, Margin Trading doesn't need any "fixes." The skill plays only a minor role in what is largely a psychological scam. It's no different from the fact that you'd need to have the Corporation Management skills to run a huge alliance before you could weasel your way into the position and loot the hangars. It's 95% set-up and 5% having the requisite mechanical skill to pull it off.
SuperTight5
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2014-02-11 14:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: SuperTight5
Just make a "Sell test" button. You don't need to possess real item for test, you just want to be sure you will be able to sell item if you have it.

1. Test goes for highest buy order, like you tried "simple sell" of the item
2. If order cannot be fulfilled it is just canceled at buyer side, like you tried to sell real item.

Buyer will never know if the order canceled due to real trade or test trade
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#453 - 2014-02-12 08:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
SuperTight5 wrote:
2. If order cannot be fulfilled it is just canceled at buyer side, like you tried to sell real item.


Which completely nullifies the value of Margin Trading. I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Maybe they think that Margin Trading can only be used for scamming?

The entire point of Margin Trading is that you don't have to have enough money to cover the order. It allows for the possibility that you will be able to cover the order by the time somebody tries to sell to it. This is particularly useful when you have buy orders that you don't expect to fill quickly. You don't have enough money to cover them 100% right now, but as time passes, your expected cash flow will be enough to handle it.

If what you suggested actually was implemented in the game, I guarantee you there would be people (largely market PVP types) whose objective it would be to go through the markets--especially for items on which they are facing stiff competition--and "test" every single buy order so they could eliminate opposition. Ultimately, Margin Trading would lose its entire utility.

The crazy thing is that nobody who's on about the Margin Trading scam can suggest anything that doesn't ultimately add up to a full-scale nerf of the skill, its elimination from the game, or an unworkable "fix" that misses the point (i.e. all the "solutions" that would see a Margin Trading order marked or highlighted, which would be utterly meaningless given how many legit traders possess the skill).

People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. It's your choice to buy overpriced stuff. Learn the market. Avoid obvious red flags. The skill is not doing this to you. It's your own psychological reaction to a well-placed stimulus.
SuperTight5
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#454 - 2014-02-12 10:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SuperTight5
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=SuperTight5]
If what you suggested actually was implemented in the game, I guarantee you there would be people (largely market PVP types) whose objective it would be to go through the markets--especially for items on which they are facing stiff competition--and "test" every single buy order so they could eliminate opposition. Ultimately, Margin Trading would lose its entire utility.


One "test" per account per 24h (48h? 72h?) allowed. Problem solved.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#455 - 2014-02-12 15:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
SuperTight5 wrote:
Just make a "Sell test" button. You don't need to possess real item for test, you just want to be sure you will be able to sell item if you have it.

1. Test goes for highest buy order, like you tried "simple sell" of the item
2. If order cannot be fulfilled it is just canceled at buyer side, like you tried to sell real item.

Buyer will never know if the order canceled due to real trade or test trade
But when you try to sell to one of these, you don't lose anything and it simply closes anyway. So why break the system and peoples buy orders, when this already happens?

This would be abused, I hope you see that.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#456 - 2014-02-12 16:20:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
SuperTight5 wrote:
One "test" per account per 24h (48h? 72h?) allowed. Problem solved.


No, because the skill isn't what scams you, so all the anger directed at the actual Margin Trading skill is absolutely misdirected.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#457 - 2014-02-12 16:40:07 UTC
SuperTight5 wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=SuperTight5]
If what you suggested actually was implemented in the game, I guarantee you there would be people (largely market PVP types) whose objective it would be to go through the markets--especially for items on which they are facing stiff competition--and "test" every single buy order so they could eliminate opposition. Ultimately, Margin Trading would lose its entire utility.


One "test" per account per 24h (48h? 72h?) allowed. Problem solved.


one 'failed' test, so we can have anti-scammer out there wreaking havoc with all the scammers out there!

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#458 - 2014-02-12 16:41:37 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
*doh* I don't know how I missed it.What?

All these trades are covered by a broker. Currently the broker is passing the buck.

The broker is responsible for fulfilling the sales contract.
The broker charges fees for this.

a margin deposit is placed with the broker for all buy orders from 100% and down depending on skill level.

If a player has a failed trade due to insufficient funds, then a margin call is made and if not met then all funds with the broker are forfeit.

Repeated failures, means the broker determines you a waste of fresh air and deletes you as a customer.
Margin trading is a privilege you earn, not a right, and that can be taken away as well as given.

Why reinvent the real world, you have a tame economist/trader make use of him to show you how to duplicate real world working systems.

Hint:- real life brokers hate wasting time and hate wasting money, simplicity is key, if the client is worthless, then take his money and get rid of him.

next!

There are Plenty more people who want to trade out there.



should not the broker complete the trade on behalf of the seller, and then refuse to buy anything more for the buyer until they stump up the isk for the failed order? or would that be abused?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#459 - 2014-02-12 23:27:07 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
should not the broker complete the trade on behalf of the seller, and then refuse to buy anything more for the buyer until they stump up the isk for the failed order? or would that be abused?


Characters can be biomassed. There is no way to ensure that people who scam you will be punished in any way.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#460 - 2014-02-12 23:40:09 UTC
Jarom Rimhiux wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
For a fee, allow anyone to verify a market order. They simply need to right click on an order and select "verify it with the broker". If the order is legit, the broker tells you. If the order has insufficient funds backing it, the broker tells you, and cancels the order.

Make the fee a reasonable value (1m isk or something), so it is used conservatively.


I was going to troll this response. But after a moment of thought, I decided that having a "Verify Order" option in the advanced order window might actually work.

There should be a fee for this service with a limit of say 1M isk or 1%, which ever is lower. NPCs don't work for free. (Just almost for free.) Could also have a Trade skill called "Broker Relations" or something similar to reduce the fee per order. And/Or it could be based on one's standings with the station owner.

Since the margin trading scam is based on tricking someone into buying a high price and low volume item on the hope of them selling it back to the fake buy order, being able to verify the buy order before hand should allow one to know for certain if it is legit.

While this will not stop an attentive scammer from canceling the buy order as soon as the item is sold, at least the scam would be executed by an active player rather than through inaccurate/misleading market mechanics.





Something like that would work nicely. Also, error message (order couldn't be fulfilled) should be different, clearly saying that buyer has no money.


I think having a clear error message that says "the corder couldn't be fullfilled because the buyer is out of money" is very appropriate.

In the end, it sounds like CCP should do 3 things:

1.) In the market tutorial, it should CLEARLY state that buy orders are not guaranteed.
2.) When a buy order fails because of insufficient funds, clearly state to the seller that the buy order didn't complete because of insufficient funds.
3.) Add a "Verify Order" action to all buy orders, so players can check the validity of an order before attempting to fulfill it (for a fee of course!).