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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#261 - 2013-11-25 03:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Actually CCP Rise referred to them as "fake" orders as well in the OP, does it make you feel like a special snowflake to disagree with everyone else?


CCP Rise, no offense intended, should stick to ship balancing.

And Tippia is not disagreeing with everyone else. I completely agree with the stance as well, as do numerous others throughout the thread

What Tippia is doing is stating that the problem isn't what people think it is.

The problem is player knowledge, not the skill itself. The tools exist to see through every margin trading scam, every time. The real problem is that people are too stupid to use them. If you ever fell for a margin scam, it was 100% your own fault.

So, more information needs to be made available. Perhaps the market history needs to be shown elsewhere than in a different tab. (Because clicking twice is way too much work)

Perhaps disclaimers that prices are not guaranteed. Because for some reason people think just because it's on the market that it's a guarantee of anything.

The attititude is wrong, the expectations of how the market works are wrong.

Like with most things in this game, information about how things work they way they do, and why, is just not readily available unless you specifically go looking for it. Those who don't are sheep.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#262 - 2013-11-25 03:37:10 UTC
From the few posts I've read (and holy assballs, trying to browse the net with Virgin Media internet is like trying to re-create the Vitruvan Man with an angle grinder upside down without eyewear) It seems that people either want it 'marked' or removed entirely.

This would dissallow people to have buy orders of 8b for a Moracha up without investing said 8b on the off chance someone who enjoys chewing chalk sells it, removes any isk invested in setting up an order when their wallet empties in a lul when the isk balance between their liquidity and their spread bets falls below 0 (or at best, requires a recreation of said orders)
or conversely allows a further level of fear from uneducated people as to what the 'marking' does.

I believe the easiest solution to this would be to simply hide (or at least, give the option to toggle) orders that will not be filled (but are for no intent and purpose 'fake') meaning that if Maxore lists

1 Maller for sale at 2 million isk
1 Sentinel for purchase at 1.1 million isk
1 Chremoas for purchase at 900 thousand isk
and has 800 thousand isk available after placing the above orders, the two buy orders will be invisible or hidden BUT STILL EXIST, as logically there is no way either or both orders will be fulfilled, however when Maxore's owner is out getting a swag tan at the pool, and the Maller sells, mere moments before Chalk Eater sells his Chremoas to buy orders, Maxore's highest buy order suddenly re-activates and is completed, and the Sentinel buy order is now available to be fulfilled as well.

This solution allows traders who have low liquidity to place multiple items and quite literally 'diversify yo stocks brah' without risking the market trading scams which would not be filled anyway due to empty wallets, and remove the micromanaging changes. As I understand this shouldn't add too much server load, but I'm not 100% certain, as it depends when a wallet balance and buy order authenticity is checked) but also doesn't give anyone a 'pro trader mark'
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#263 - 2013-11-25 03:38:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

CCP Rise, no offense intended, should stick to ship balancing.



You should stick to the view that your opinion is, by and large, invalid and useless. Much like how I don't ask my Iceberg Lettuce what I should wear to lectures in the morning.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#264 - 2013-11-25 03:55:10 UTC
Quote:
trying to browse the net with Virgin Media internet is like trying to re-create the Vitruvan Man with an angle grinder upside down without eyewear


I have Virgin. You forgot to add "while being attacked by rabid bats".

Quote:
You should stick to the view that your opinion is, by and large, invalid and useless. Much like how I don't ask my Iceberg Lettuce what I should wear to lectures in the morning.


Why do you eat Iceberg lettuce for breakfast? Or did I infer that incorrectly?

Anyway, you are correct. Most of us, aside from those with white or blue badges, are just faces behind a screen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#265 - 2013-11-25 04:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anyway, you are correct. Most of us, aside from those with white or blue badges, are just faces behind a screen.


Stop discriminating against the faceless.

We are Meat Popsicles behind a screen.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#266 - 2013-11-25 04:27:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anyway, you are correct. Most of us, aside from those with white or blue badges, are just faces behind a screen.


Stop discriminating against the faceless.

We are Meat Popsicles behind a screen.


Meat Popsicles with snazzy monocles.

Or, in my case, sunglasses, the double monocle.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2013-11-25 04:41:08 UTC
The base answer for most posts is:

- Regardless of who posts an idea, the idea stands for itself. If a mathematician says 2 + 2 in base 10 is 6, the person still wrong, and if a iliterate says 2 + 2 in base 10 is 4, the person still right.

- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users. There is no determinated clue to many of the scams around that count on the little effort put until now over market, contracting and corp management interface. To be useful, you should put your considerations in terms of all players, not just what YOU think, YOU know, and YOU can.

The remaining few posts that cant be countered by those two statements bear some reason, but the feature itself is a "scambait", because there is no scenario where that feature can take place and asure the honesty of the order in any way. If there is no forceful way for the seller to provide the payment when due, there is no way to ensure that the payment will be done.

In real life international trading where law cannot really enforce those transactions everywhere, some third party works as a "trust fund" that ensure the payments delayed are done, and they have their tools to ensure that they bear no losses on that fund.

In EVE, if you flag those orders, most people will just avoid them, if you make some arrangement to counter the scam but remain the skill mechanic, it will lead to other kinds of scams, and you will never be able to have it working, have people see info enough to be sure, and at the same time avoid any exploitation that can be masked by your own market window.

The best you could do is remove the skill and put something else in place or refund the skill points people have on that.

My personal opinion is that this is not a problem when people take care to what they do and learn to see that there is no such thing as free lunch. If something is overpriced or underpriced, if you are not the victm of a scam, someone is. I personally think that there is so much more in trade and general management that needs love, this one is just a matter of a bad idea that can only be made worse.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#268 - 2013-11-25 05:09:02 UTC
Quote:
- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users.


Provably false.

Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.

The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vegine
Sphere Foundation
#269 - 2013-11-25 05:36:01 UTC
Off of the top of my head:


1. Every time buyer places an order system checks against the buyer's wallet to see if there's enough isk to cover THAT particular order. If not enough order can't be posted.

2. System also does a "balance check" against the highest market order of a player whenever that player authorizes a transaction of any kind. If the check fails ie not enough isk in wallet then ALL existing market orders of that player will be cancelled.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#270 - 2013-11-25 06:39:24 UTC
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
The remaining few posts that cant be countered by those two statements bear some reason, but the feature itself is a "scambait", because there is no scenario where that feature can take place and asure the honesty of the order in any way. If there is no forceful way for the seller to provide the payment when due, there is no way to ensure that the payment will be done.
…and the question remains, as always: why are any such assurances needed in this particular case and not any of the myriad other cases where an order failed for reasons that don't really matter to you as a seller?

Quote:
The best you could do is remove the skill and put something else in place or refund the skill points people have on that.
How is making the market inefficient and forcing traders to sit on vast unused repositories of liquid cash “the best you could do”? Ugh
No, the best you could do is educate the players on how the market works and where to get the information they need. It's all there already.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2013-11-25 07:00:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users.


Provably false.

Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.

The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption.

No. It is entirely plausible for an inexperienced player to have a few hundred million ISK. The margin trading scam does target people ignorant of market mechanics. The fact they are ignorant is not always their own fault, as the system is more opaque than it appears and information or explanation is not readily available.

This can be corrected.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#272 - 2013-11-25 07:27:39 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users.


Provably false.

Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.

The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption.

No. It is entirely plausible for an inexperienced player to have a few hundred million ISK. The margin trading scam does target people ignorant of market mechanics. The fact they are ignorant is not always their own fault, as the system is more opaque than it appears and information or explanation is not readily available.

This can be corrected.


Never seen one below a billion, personally.

And yes, it can be corrected. With education. Anything else really runs the risk of ruining (other) legitimate uses for the skill.

I would however say that information is readily available. The market history tab is literally one click away. That alone serves to clear up the matter in 90% of every margin scam I have ever seen or heard of.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-11-25 08:05:16 UTC
forget market scam fixes.

REMOVE THE PRICE DIFFERENCE FROM REGIONAL AVERAGE POPUP. IT'S USELESS AND CAUSES DELAYS FOR NO REASON.

then all you need to do is allow people to put their names on buy and sell orders while also giving the option to hide it and setting the default to "show".

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
voetius
Grundrisse
#274 - 2013-11-25 09:09:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users.


Provably false.

Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.

The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption.


No Kaarous, it's not provable false, it is you that are incorrect here.

1. Some (admittedly very few) of the margin trade scams are for fairly low amounts, say 100 or 200 million

2. There is one margin trader in Amarr that actively encourages people to buy PLEX and convert them to isk. Their post in local chat goes something like "Hey look at this market mistake, I might buy a plex so I can take advantage of it blah blah"

So as your premise is false your argument fails.

If you had asserted that most of the margin trade scams are out of reach of most new players then I would of course agree.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#275 - 2013-11-25 09:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
Benny Ohu wrote:

The fact they are ignorant is not always their own fault, as the system is more opaque than it appears and information or explanation is not readily available.

This can be corrected.


Indeed it can, which is why there are quite a few calls for market stuff to be in the NPE.

I mean, they cover following FC instructions in the NPE now, as well as saving your pod, and all sorts of handy things like that, but, very little about the market, and I am fairly sure more players use the market than follow FC instructions or end up in their pod :)

The difficulty I see is in implementing it beyond doing a popup....but, they could do a "buy this from an NPC order, sell it to an NPC order" with then one of those 6 page long popups they do, followed by "For more information, head over here"

I mean, people are even unaware that eve has a brokerage system on the market, so when there is that level of ignorance towards a major game mechanic which involves the vast majority of the playerbase, (even though us traders sometimes benefit from overpaid sells or underpaid buys) maybe it is something that should be covered.

There is no need for the more detailed level of information "How to mess with the graph 101" for example, but, knowledge that the majority of orders are player orders, that you cannot pick which order to buy from, and how to sort the market by price would be a start, followed by a list of relevant skills for trading, and a description of each one. Margin Trading would be one of the skills listed, and then would have an explanation of how the scams work on it.



Additionally....the "hide orders outside of X deviation" is an underutilised tab on the market settings :)

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#276 - 2013-11-25 10:35:39 UTC
Quote:
If you had asserted that most of the margin trade scams are out of reach of most new players then I would of course agree.


See the below, emphasis mine.
Quote:

Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.


"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#277 - 2013-11-25 11:00:46 UTC
Yummy Chocolate wrote:

then all you need to do is allow people to put their names on buy and sell orders while also giving the option to hide it and setting the default to "show".


No.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#278 - 2013-11-25 11:15:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
I am well aware that there are buy orders that are not fully covered by the wallets backing them; that is something completely different to how you defined “fake”. As it happens, players do have plenty of information at their disposal to spot these orders if they need to…
What information do you have exactly that tells you when an order has had it's escrow forcibly removed?
There's ways of estimating the chances that an order is a scam, but there is no way to tell if an order has had it's escrow reduced to lower than a single item.
And if it has been reduced to lower than a single item, then from the third parties point of view, it cannot possibly ever be filled. Without the player who placed the order having a wallet balance, the order is unfillable.

Tippia wrote:
The notion that MT orders are special because they can fail and that they therefore “lie” to other traders is a wholly incorrect one. It rests on that flawed assumption that what you see in the order list is guaranteed. It never is, and the use or non-use of margin trading is not a factor.
Except there isn't information available, there's estimations available. You can guess at the chances of an order being real, that's all. That's entirely different from "information". Market orders on most games just simply work.

It's not unreasonable for gamers to come to EVE and thin kit will be the same here. Much like if Rockstar swapped the "get out of car" and "handbrake" buttons without any indication, many people would be throwing themselves out of the car. EVE does not train people to trade, it does not give clear information on what to look for on market orders and it doesn't follow usual patterns of behavior for an MMO. What this leads to is people exploiting that lack of knowledge for an easy gain.

Now I think scamming is an important part of EVE, and think it should always be there. MT scams however are simply exploiting a misunderstanding that's not explained. It's a way for people with loads of experience in the game to get isk out of newer players with nearly no effort.

I think providing players with solid information is the way forward. The market window should indicate how much of an order can actually be filled. From this being available, people would then realise that the market isn't as clean cut and would be able to go and find out what that means. The career agent should also cover this. If they are then too dumb to bother looking into it, they deserve to be scammed, but you can't blame people not knowing a system which is completely different to all other games and not explained.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#279 - 2013-11-25 11:17:51 UTC
Yummy Chocolate wrote:

then all you need to do is allow people to put their names on buy and sell orders while also giving the option to hide it and setting the default to "show".


Yeah, because this would in no way only negatively impact new and inexperienced traders Roll

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Jason Itiner
Harmless People
#280 - 2013-11-25 11:19:39 UTC
Nil'kandra wrote:
Ever since I saw that "Market Fine" was an option in your wallet log dropdown, I wondered why it was never implemented for this reason.

You can create a disincentive *and* an isk sink. If people just keep using new chars to get around negative wallet issues in doing this, then you just increased the margin needed to make a scam worth it, making a isk sink and an SP sink that hits the scammers only. People get scammed still because, let's face it, EVE is harsh at times.

Might want to push up the skill needs on the Margin Trade skill while you're at it. SP sink also would be a huge disincentive to scammers.


Both good ideas. Make the skill rank 4+, so it takes a long time to train (though let's not go overboard and turn it into JDC II), and implement a fine that gets levied if the player's wallet goes lower than the ISK required to cover the transactions he/she has up.