Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The question is, what's “not accurate” here? I think that's the major hang-up for me.

The price is accurate if the ISK is there, and tbh, I don't really see that the state of someone else's wallet is my business. Not to mention that this state will change from one second to the next. Imagine the server load if the market is supposed to check every order for “margin trade” flag and then poll each and every one of those wallets every time someone pulls down the market info for an item… and even then, it'll be inaccurate unless it pushes updates to everyone watching at any time when any of those wallets change.

I still only see inaccuracies in people's assumptions about what the market window is telling them, so the better strategy to my mind is to go after those assumptions. A market order is a market order is a market order. Some fail (for any of a myriad of reasons) and some will go through, and I'm already fully protected regardless since no trade ever takes place without both sides getting what they asked for. Maybe if some of the price history or deviation-from-average information was moved directly to the market listing itself rather than hidden in a separate tab or in the buy/sell dialogue? That would give the double information of “here's the potential offer, and here's what the market says it's actually worth in practice”.

The mechanics work. The information and education about them less so. The notion that some orders should be market is fraught with technical problems, not to mention that it would largely be pointless anyway unless they completely reprogrammed how the market worked. Yay, now the MT orders are highlighted… so what? That will still be the vast majority of them, which means there's too much noise to make any good decisions anyway. And I'll still can't pick who I'm buying from or selling to, and “fixing” that makes the market inefficient. Those who are afraid of not getting their stuff sold are still better served by the price history, because that's where the information they need sits.


Why does this edge case need to be fixed? Especially considering that it's not really what we're trying to fix, which is any supposed inaccuracies in the market UI… if any such can really be determined.

Make it so you escrow enough isk to cover 1 unit on every buy order.

Or make this apply when there is no competition on buy orders.

Essentially limit min q to 1/5th of buy order total q since escrow minimum caps at around 1/4 to 1/5 and make it so if someone tries to sell max q he gets asked if he wants to fill 1/5 because the placeholder of buy order hasn't got enough isk.

That way you don't ruin regional buy orders with min q where people try to prevent hauling too small amounts of minerals ammo and similar things.

Another way is to prevent minimum q on items with discontinued curves. IE useless t2 rigs and commodities.

If you have 1/5 tot as minimum q then the escrow minimum represents a full coverage of minimum amount which allows players to place full cover full minimum buy orders with their wallets otherwise dry which means you are given an option and minimum q scales up with the size of your investment.

Also make it so buy orders don't disappear if there is an unsuccessful attempt to fill them and make the cancellation of such buy order have a 5 minutes delay which you start by attempting cancellation when you have wallet incapable of covering the full amount of it, to prevent scripted cancellations when a would be bot detects that contract selling "rare item" has been filled and the order will incur a loss because of fake display of its value. The buy orders are to disappear when the escrow + isk in wallet fall below 1/5 of buy order tot.

The fully coverable orders could still be instant canceled by the owner but at least then the guy would bear the risk of someone gathering such "rare items" and incurring a big loss upon the scammer.

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Example 1
Total in Escrow: 237,304 ISK (additional 762,695 ISK to cover)
Buy orders total: 1,000,000 ISK
Q:5
Min Q:1

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Example 2
Total in Escrow: 474,608 ISK (additional 1,525,390 ISK to cover)
Buy orders total: 2,000,000 ISK
Q:10
Min Q:2

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If scammer watches contract or whatever source of sell form he has he can still cancel the order by selling 1/5th of the items to himself. But that would already be a severely diminished effect.

Before reading the replies of others, my first thoughts;

If we would choose the CSM option, my trading alts need the option to place an order as Secure or as Margin traded. So it would require an option that you have to select.

Extra's after that;

Like Matthew said before, this could also be done by reimbursement of the Margin Trade skill and offer anyone this choice, it would even out the playing field. The anonymity problem as set out by Matthew would not be solved. A rating system per player on failed orders could be a sign. Make this a rolling average over X time though, so alts can be sold and restored to be good traders.

If a cancel order option would be chosen based on the Escrow amount, I would like to be able to manage my Escrow amount, I would like to deposit / take out money on my preferred times. Also the approach 'time factor in market activity' as set out by Miranda McLaughlin is an issue herein.

And what Gizznitt Malikite said. No change is required, you are just protecting lazy people. The extra input as when the order is colored, that people stil will trust the market, and the symtom will return is posted by Gizznitt Malikite already. The idea to let players choose to perform a risk assessment would mitigate this problem. People can be made aware of this function in the Tuturials of Aura.

The "Corner the market" concept by Banlish is very true by full vision. I would use it too. And build the proposed log, not just for buyorders, but for all of them. A orders history tab.

The skill to find out who is working your market, should not be just rushed out of the game. Its a proffession practiced by a lot of traders that want an edge on the market. Displaying names as suggested by Gizznitt Malikite and Armakoir would do so. Another market skill, as mentioned by Gizznitt Malikite, - Draining your Escrow - , is also a function not utilized by a lot of players.

The market Agents as proposed by Gizznitt Malikite would really make for a more exiting market PVP, please add those to the game anyway ;).

The proposal of Berluth Luthian to effect standings to Corporations and Empires of the station that you perform the Market scam in would be a great addition in market PVP too. The "Because of throwaway alts." argument by Abdiel Kavash is not valid, because a player recycling a negitive standing alt, is crossing with EULA, since its deemed an exploit. (I cant find a link to the DEV posting of this)

But consider that then "hidden" orders should still use up Order Slots on your characters account.

Amazingly enough though, the real world is not EvE. You don't get to biomass yourself and start over to avoid consequences. When you screw somebody over in EvE, they don't get to take you to court for fraud and have you thrown in EvE-jail. EvE is a game. It does not adhere to real life examples.

While we're on the subject (I actually don't care about the margin scams BTW, let it stay really) please give us the option to turn margin trading on and off, I have orders I'd like to use the skill and orders I'd like to keep from the skill, I'd like the ability to pick and choose.

I'm glad this is being looked at. I am not against scamming, but I also think market information should be clear, accurate, and reliable. The idea that players should know what's too good to be true ignores the fact that many times there are legitimate deals that should be too good to be true. If someone beats me to them, that's fair, but if they were a lie, then it's the market that lied to me and not the scammer. The market should never lie.

Most of the ways I can think of to improve the margin trading mechanic would add considerable server load. As a constant user of margin trading, I don't want to lose the benefits, but I would be willing to give up a little for the benefit of the market.

So my current thoughts are:

1. The margin trading skill/benefit should not apply to the first or only buy order placed. If you only have one order, there should be sufficient funds earmarked to cover it 100% (price times quantity). If you don't have enough ISK to cover the total quantity of one buy order, you should not be placing an order for that quantity.

2. If you have two or more active buy orders, your encumbered funds (escrow) should cover at least 100% of the most expensive one (price times quantity).

3. When a buy order fills, a calculation could occur which compares your escrow to your most expensive remaining buy order, and adjusts the escrow to cover it. If you do not have wallet funds available to add to your escrow, all unfillable orders would be suspended, and would no longer show up in the market.

4. Suspended orders could be shown in your orders list, and re-instated when your wallet balance increases enough to adjust your escrow, either automatically when another order is filled and the escrow calculation is performed, or possibly manually by right-clicking the suspended order.

Please try to read and understand. If you set buy order for 10 Drakes with minimal purchase of 2 Drakes then by this proposal you need to have enough in the wallet to cover purchase of 2 Drakes. If you didn't have this money your order wouldn't work anyway, would it?

And the part with suspension I like is that when you actually don't have this money, your order goes inactive but when you get some back, order reactivates. Normal traders aren't hurt.

As opposed to changing the game to cater for the stupid?

ah nvm then...

Two points that I want to re-emphasize:


1.) No change is needed if you inform players that Buy Orders are Not Guaranteed!!! All competent in game traders know this and operate under this assumption already. The new guy that isn't familiar with the mechanics behind the Margin Trade order incorrectly assumes that buy orders are guaranteed, especially since the vast majority of buy orders complete without fail. Education is what is truly needed, not a change in game mechanics.

2.) It seems absolutely ridiclous to me to spend computer overhead monitoring peoples wallets and continuously updating the market interface just to make the market idiot-proof. I'm sorry, I want that server load going to something that matters, not protecting incompetent and/or greedy wanna-be traders. As such, I see only one implementable solution that will protect these under-educated individuals. This has already been brought up before, but here's the gist:



I'd like to point out, that the market is pretty fine as is, and the proposed changes aren't about "keeping the interface honest". The interface is completely honest.:

If it says there is a buy order there, and there is a buy order there.

If you make a trade, it either goes through using the proposed terms of a buy/sell order, or the transaction fails and neither party loses out.

Let's examine the behavior that brings up this discussion:
1.) People incorrectly assume buy orders are guaranteed. This means some more education is necessary.

2.) Traders simply want to eliminate/reduce their risks. By making buy orders guaranteed, a huge amount of the risk in trading goods is simply eliminated. Why would CCP want to do this, to an already low-risk, high profit profession? Hell NO.

I still have yet to hear anyone adequately answer:
Why should buy orders be guaranteed?