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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#261 - 2011-12-09 21:33:33 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


In theory, the Thanatos's damage bonus means that it would be best employed in small fights where the extra DPS is most useful. In reality, in those small-scale fights, the RR ability of triage Archon is arguably more valuable even there...


There is no argument here. It's not arguably more valuable, it is objectively more valuable.

An archon can put out 1000 DPS, max skilled. That's nothing. A decent BS gets close to that.

An archon WITHOUT TRIAGE can rep around 5k (assuming the target has a good resist profile) with all four reps running. With triage, it can rep over 20k.
Labourer
The Damned Legion
#262 - 2011-12-09 22:16:43 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Goddamn there are some ****** up ideas about carriers here.

GENERAL ARMOR SUPREMACY

Why are armor carriers so much more popular? Two reasons. Gang homogeneity, and shield reps suck.

In a capital and supercapital gang, the carriers are fodder. When **** hits the fan, you rep the supers. So you have to rep what the supers need, and that's armor. Avatars and erebuses (the most popular titans) and nyxes and aeons (the most popular supercarriers) all armor tank. Shield tanking supers are a joke, so no one trains for them, so there's no need to support them, so there's no support, so no-one trains for them. It's a vicious cycle. And even if that were changed overnight, the volume of existing supercaps in the game isn't going away. It will take years for shield capitals and supercapitals to become popular, if it's even possible.

The capital battle is much like the subcap. No-one wants to run mixed gangs. Now, considering that armor reps are overwhelmingly demanded by the people that matter (supers), you are going to fit your carriers (and chose what to train for) around that. The archon armor tanks. The thanatos armor tanks. The Nidhoggur armor tanks. The chimera shield tanks. The chimera could be the best carrier in the game, and it would still suck and be the least popular carrier because there's no-one to rep.

The second part is that shield reps suck. You might think I mean they're a little bit more tricky. No, they SUCK. Their fitting restrictions are insane, their CPU usage is way way way too ******* high. And this affects all the "multi-doctrine" carriers (the thanatos, the nid) but the nid and the chimera are most affected.

To those of you advocating that the nidhoggur switches to a shield tank: can I have some of what you're smoking? What do you think this is going to achieve? Apart from the abandonment of the nidhoggur, is that what you want?

TRIAGE:

The archon is the best triage carrier because it has the a 5% per level resist bonus (which makes local rep more effective), it has enough powergrid to make fitting not a massive headache, and it's got enough cap that it can run the local and remote reps well (as you can't recieve remote in triage).

The shield counterpart to this armor behemoth should be the chimera. It's got the same 5% bonus to resist, and it's got bonuses to shield transfers. The trouble is, it doesn't have anything like enough CPU to do this well. Whereas the archon can easily fit 4 remote reps, triage, and two local reps, a similar setup on a chimera is already at 135% CPU without any other modules fitted.

So no, on triage they are not equal.

General Archon supremacy

Archons can rep armor, which means they can act as support for avatars and erebuses (the most popular titans) and nyxes and aeons (the most popular supercarriers). Because they can transfer cap, they can also help cap up supers after a jump in. This, coupled with their heavy tank, makes them excellent capital support.

The thanatos has a bonus to armor rep, but loses out on the cap transfer and tank bonus But they're still a very popular carrier (due to people using the fighters for ratting, or looking to utilise the larger drone bay, or progressing onto a Nyx). So, while they're not objectively as good, they're still popular.

The nidhoggur, with its rep bonus, should be more popular than it is. The main downside is that it's the least tanky of the armor carriers. It's recent boost to cap and rep/level bonus are most welcome, but the bonus to powergrid was just bizarre and unnecessary. It didn't have much of a problem with powergrid. It's CPU, however, like all shield repping caps, is ******* BATSHIT ******** because the CPU requirements of the shield reps are ******* BATSHIT ********.

Then there's the chimera. Has to shield tank. Fitting issues abound. Just lol.


To solve this shield/armor balancing issue. For the love of all that is good and holy, will CCP please just fix the bloddy shield bonus! When I join a shield fleet with a max skilled Leviathan titan. I have to repp up 37.5% of my shield each time there is a session change. This is compounded even more when there is someone with a Siege Warfare Mindlink with an additional 15% bonus to shield.

For super capital this in most cases needs to be passively recharged. For carriers and dreads it is mostly locally repped. Still makes and form of shield extention bonus useless.

Maybe instead of increased shield make it recharge faster.

CCP has had this flaw as long as I can remember and have done nothing to correct it. If you correct this I am sure they will balance out. I for one stopped using shield based ships purely for this reason.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#263 - 2011-12-09 22:30:05 UTC
Labourer wrote:


To solve this shield/armor balancing issue. For the love of all that is good and holy, will CCP please just fix the bloddy shield bonus! When I join a shield fleet with a max skilled Leviathan titan. I have to repp up 37.5% of my shield each time there is a session change. This is compounded even more when there is someone with a Siege Warfare Mindlink with an additional 15% bonus to shield.

For super capital this in most cases needs to be passively recharged. For carriers and dreads it is mostly locally repped. Still makes and form of shield extention bonus useless.

Maybe instead of increased shield make it recharge faster.

CCP has had this flaw as long as I can remember and have done nothing to correct it. If you correct this I am sure they will balance out. I for one stopped using shield based ships purely for this reason.


I think that a fix for the shield bonus is in the works, as is some consideration of the idea of a "shield slave" implant set.

But it still won't do any ******* good. If you're training into a super, everyone else is armor. Everyone can rep armor right now. You can't dock up and switch supers. Even if you could, few could afford it. And the training time for both armor and shield tank skills to capital (or supercapital standard) is a PITA. So moving doctrines at a capital and supercapital level is going to take a LONG time because the skills needed are long trains, the amount of money required is large, and the ships themselves take a long time to build. And there's no incentive: even if you balance shield, it's as good as what you have now.

So people are going to go with inertia, and that's armor.

Rek Esket
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2011-12-09 23:30:14 UTC
Labourer wrote:
Regarding the Triage Module, I agree with what most people have set regarding the changes to help the local tank of a triage carrier.


The role of a triage carrier is remote reps, so a bonus to remote reps from T2 triage is fitting and justified. There is huge potential in being able to extend the duration that a rack of reppers can run before capping out, and the difference can potentially save a fleet.

Alternatively - A local rep bonus isn't going to help you survive a doomsday, dreads, supercarriers, or any of the other things that people would have reason to field triage carriers against. The carrier's HP buffer is small enough that it isn't going to pull much healing out of a capital shield booster before it pops.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2011-12-09 23:38:44 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Labourer wrote:


To solve this shield/armor balancing issue. For the love of all that is good and holy, will CCP please just fix the bloddy shield bonus! When I join a shield fleet with a max skilled Leviathan titan. I have to repp up 37.5% of my shield each time there is a session change. This is compounded even more when there is someone with a Siege Warfare Mindlink with an additional 15% bonus to shield.

For super capital this in most cases needs to be passively recharged. For carriers and dreads it is mostly locally repped. Still makes and form of shield extention bonus useless.

Maybe instead of increased shield make it recharge faster.

CCP has had this flaw as long as I can remember and have done nothing to correct it. If you correct this I am sure they will balance out. I for one stopped using shield based ships purely for this reason.


I think that a fix for the shield bonus is in the works, as is some consideration of the idea of a "shield slave" implant set.

But it still won't do any ******* good. If you're training into a super, everyone else is armor. Everyone can rep armor right now. You can't dock up and switch supers. Even if you could, few could afford it. And the training time for both armor and shield tank skills to capital (or supercapital standard) is a PITA. So moving doctrines at a capital and supercapital level is going to take a LONG time because the skills needed are long trains, the amount of money required is large, and the ships themselves take a long time to build. And there's no incentive: even if you balance shield, it's as good as what you have now.

So people are going to go with inertia, and that's armor.




^^^ That and training cap shield boosters takes quite a bit longer than cap armour reppersas well.

The alterations to the Minmatar carriers are a start, but they are far from adequate, let alone good (and i say good when compared to the Archon which does a better job than it). The Nidhoggue should be the best RR capital there is, PERIOD. It needs more PG and capacitor.

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mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2011-12-09 23:49:47 UTC
funny, of all Gallente ships with repair bonus and the carrier which is what most would use it, do not have it
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2011-12-10 01:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
T2 Triage should provide a bonus similar to t2 siege.

T2 Siege grants:
50% more targets
17.5% more DPS
16% locking time reduction

T2 Triage gets
25 less stront consumption
10% more targets
20% cap use reduction on remote modules only

Seems like not quite as much of a bonus...

Suggestion: 20% bonus to all (remote and self) reps.

Chimera would be fine if it had, like, 20% more CPU.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#268 - 2011-12-10 01:33:44 UTC
mine mi wrote:
funny, of all Gallente ships with repair bonus and the carrier which is what most would use it, do not have it

What's funny is how well giving the thanatos and nidhoggur repair amount bonuses would match the tier 3 BS bonuses.

Not saying it's balanced, but it does have a nice symmetry to it.

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Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#269 - 2011-12-10 15:45:18 UTC
Tech 1 interdiction links and triage is enough overpowered, boost tech 2 is bad idea i think.

Offgrid links is great mistake too, they kill role of comand ships and they kill pvp.
Merritoff
Zod's Minions
#270 - 2011-12-11 11:24:12 UTC
Helothane wrote:
The small, medium and large t2 remote hull repair systems all require Remote Hull Repair Systems V. That seems odd, at the very least, and breaks from the pattern for t2 remote armor, shield and cap transfer mods. Why not levels III, IV and IV, respectively?


I will echo on this as well. I did ask about this elsewhere - but maybe here is more appropiate. I would even accept IV - but putting in the same par as Capital Remote?

As a personal note, maybe give the Onerios bonus for Remote Hull, instead of a little utilised Tracking Link.
Sigras
Conglomo
#271 - 2011-12-11 23:49:44 UTC
so switching the little used tracking link bonus to the never used remote hull repairer bonus?
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#272 - 2011-12-13 16:24:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey in there, you are not forgotten, just a bit busy with multiple stuff coming in.

Here are the iteration changes planned for tech2 mods:


When those changes will hit TQ?

I need new signature.
Xeron Rich
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#273 - 2011-12-13 18:02:01 UTC
Soon™ Duh P
Dark Stryke
Doomheim
#274 - 2011-12-14 00:00:50 UTC
Carriers don't deserve a further local tank boost while triaged, not unless that Archon gets it's resist bonus replaced with something like an armor hp bonus, and the tanks aren't so grossly out of line between the races. Anyone that says things aren't unbalanced as hell is either clueless or a liar, the Archon is a multitude of leagues better then any other carrier for actual battle use.
Arele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2011-12-14 00:10:43 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Quote:

The Nidhoggur has been boosted in crucible. I think it's too early to tell if it will be used more. But with the extra rep bonus, two nid armor RR do 90% of the rep of 3 archon reps. And you can keep the nid running for longer than the archon.


I don't fly it myself, but I've been told that even after the boosts, it loses significantly in comparison with the Archon. I haven't cruched the numbers myself, so can't comment on specifics here.

I'm hoping that it's at least somewhat competitive now, but... dunno. Maybe someone can provide more info on this?

Keep in mind, people generally take a while to find the optimal setups. Besides, to fully shine with the RR bonus, it needs minmatar carrier V, and I don't think there are as many people with that as amarr carrier V.

Quote:
Quote:

The chimera is in dire need of help. But I'm not sure how carriers fit in shield gangs anyway.


Well, we fly shield-based bs gangs (among lots of other things), and those can often find good use for a hotdropped triage carrier. To date, that hasn't been used much because the shield-rep capable carriers have been... well, a bit sad.

Shield gangs, including your alpha maelstroms, usually work best at mid-range. So they vulnerable to being chased away from rep range from the carrier.


Here's the thoughts of a Minmatar Carrier V skilled pilot: Oh boy I can triage rep pos shields with paper cap fits, that sure was better use of 3.6mil SP instead of an Archon!
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#276 - 2011-12-14 14:08:32 UTC
Dark Stryke wrote:
Carriers don't deserve a further local tank boost while triaged, not unless that Archon gets it's resist bonus replaced with something like an armor hp bonus, and the tanks aren't so grossly out of line between the races. Anyone that says things aren't unbalanced as hell is either clueless or a liar, the Archon is a multitude of leagues better then any other carrier for actual battle use.


I agree, Archon is massively overpowered. I'm surprised CCP doesnt realize this.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2011-12-14 14:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Neo Agricola
Dream Five wrote:
Dark Stryke wrote:
Carriers don't deserve a further local tank boost while triaged, not unless that Archon gets it's resist bonus replaced with something like an armor hp bonus, and the tanks aren't so grossly out of line between the races. Anyone that says things aren't unbalanced as hell is either clueless or a liar, the Archon is a multitude of leagues better then any other carrier for actual battle use.


I agree, Archon is massively overpowered. I'm surprised CCP doesnt realize this.

you are wrong. Archon is the only carrier which can do his Job. Ever other carrier is underpowered...
(and btw: i can't fly an Archon, i use a Thani, and i whish i could fit it the same as an archon, even without those 5% ressistens Bonus)

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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#278 - 2011-12-14 15:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Neo Agricola wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Dark Stryke wrote:
Carriers don't deserve a further local tank boost while triaged, not unless that Archon gets it's resist bonus replaced with something like an armor hp bonus, and the tanks aren't so grossly out of line between the races. Anyone that says things aren't unbalanced as hell is either clueless or a liar, the Archon is a multitude of leagues better then any other carrier for actual battle use.


I agree, Archon is massively overpowered. I'm surprised CCP doesnt realize this.

you are wrong. Archon is the only carrier which can do his Job. Ever other carrier is underpowered...
(and btw: i can't fly an Archon, i use a Thani, and i whish i could fit it the same as an archon, even without those 5% ressistens Bonus)


20-25k dps local reps is not overpowered? OK. (compare that to 10k on other carriers). But i agree, it's either one or the other, the potential local rep capability on other carriers needs to be on par with Archon or Archon needs a nerf.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#279 - 2011-12-14 15:51:53 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
20-25k dps local reps is not overpowered? OK. (compare that to 10k on other carriers). But i agree, it's either one or the other, the potential local rep capability on other carriers needs to be on par with Archon or Archon needs a nerf.

You are either comparing command boosted archons to unboosted carriers, or you are terrible at fitting. Max skilled local tanks in triage, with relevant command ship bonuses (not T3):


  • Archon: 21949
  • Thanatos: 16462
  • Nid (shield tanked, CPR in lows): 18208
  • Nid (armor tanked): 16462
  • Chimera: 15000-24000 depending on fittings. Fitting RR on a triage chimera is so hard it's not funny.


Both the nidhoggur fits are for armor RR. The local shield/armor RR one is fairly good, but only for single triage setups.

So, yes, the archon is superior in local tank. But only by 30-40%, not 100% as you were saying.

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Aoa Lux
Joel Osteen's Internet Tax Shelter
#280 - 2011-12-14 17:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aoa Lux
NO to the local tank increase for T2 triage. That will discourage small gang combat, have no effect on fleet warfare, and is not the intended role of triage. Currently stated cap reduction bonus for remote reps fits the role of triage perfectly.

Do not make the nidhoggur a shield tank plaform unless you intend to fix the inherent problems with capital shields. Examples being:

  • shield gang bonus reset upon session change
  • Lack of slave equivalent for shield supercaps (adding subcap shield-slave implants would unbalance countless ships. Notably Tengu)
  • Original design/existence of shield hardeners. T2 invuln, DG invuln, or officer invuln. No in between. No passive omni.
  • Unbalanced cpu requirement for shield xfer
    • etc



Alex Harumichi wrote:


(golf clap)

Hooray for you. Tell me then: when do you guys fly Chimeras, Thanatoses or Nidhoggurs? You do fly them, right, since by your argument they are just fine and just need some creative thinking? So tell us: when and how do you use them.

Or, you know, concede the fact that the Archon is simply better on all levels, and you want to obfuscate that for some reason. Maybe related to fears of Communism, Marxism or Trotskyism :D




The majority of my kills in the last year are with a thanatos, and I have flown a triage chimera on at least a dozen occasions.

The archon does not need a nerf. The other carriers need to be brought to par and given more potential to fill their role.