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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#401 - 2011-11-12 00:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Pattern Clarc wrote:
You think it's bad here?

For every answer CCP Tallest provides in the hybrid thread, a thousand questions are written in reply.

Should we be looking forward to the winter expansion or summer for these things? We've waited 2 years, I'm sure a few more months won't hurt...


Give Tallest a break, he should focus on Tier 3 atm, since it is the thing that needs to be done right now.

Hybrids are useless for 3 years now, and I don't think this will change over night. It is not Tallest fault that he have to clean up the mess Nozh left behind and leaving him in the delicate decision about making exceptions or run another full balance check on the hole system. In my opinion, go for it Tallest, liberate close range pvp from stupid on/off mechanics(scrams) and make it a more rewarding and challenging pvp combat range again(especially for blaster pvp for everybody that can think beyond "I have a smaller ship you can't track me").
Justin Cody
War Firm
#402 - 2011-11-12 05:53:47 UTC
Rico Rage wrote:
So to recap CCP stance on this so far:

- Minmatar are OP for lore reasons
- Hybrids suck, but everything else is so screwed up we can't really fix em.
- Naga sucks because Caldari BS's suck, and we can't possibly break away from the chain of suckage and fess up that Raven and Rokh were badly designed to begin with.


Among many things, all this really seems to tell me is that CCP is too scared to change the status quo, and because the status quo is @$%^, things will continue to be as they are because they're afraid of trying to actually balance their game.

*sigh* There goes my hope for this expansion.


Minmatar are Op because no weapons system they have uses cap and they can choose to engage or disengage at will with their superior speed and maneuverability. Also the falloff on AC's is redonkulous. Hybrids don't suck...railguns suck. Blasters do what they do very well. Railguns try to bring DPS to the realm where alpha dominates and then promptly fails. The parimary reason is that ranged combat has been nerfed over time from general ship HP increases to insta-probing close range death squads. Oh and the extreme nerf of torp range for no damage increase was a killer. Railguns can't track....use too much cap/grid/cpu/everything and make my soul hurt. As a caldari born capsuleer I wonder how my brethren can fend off all these threats with THE WORST WEAPONS SYSTEMS IN EVE.

Even the test changes don't bring rails up to par enough. The ranges railguns excell at (ranges no one can shoot back at you at) are no longer present in the game since the 250km locking cap was intro'd years ago. THANKS CCP!! The rokh only gets good beyond 250km beucase no one else can compete at that range. Hell the raven is supposed to be a long-range standoff platform. Cruise missile dps sucks. Torps can't hit at range. So yep. THe rokh at any effective range these days is outclassed by weapon systems (1400mm howitzer II) that use no cap, do very high alpha and can select a spread of damage types not limited to kin and therm.

rail guns SHOULD beat the **** out of artillery and no not just by RoF...they should out alpha, out range and deliver a pin point strike overwhelming any defense. But no...we can't even get halfway there with some decent damage. 10% on a 2700 alpha is still 2970K. That isn't a boost...that is a statisitical outlier compared to the 11-13K hits from minmatar ships. No I don't care that my rof is 3x faster if I can't kill the target I'm shooting at.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#403 - 2011-11-12 17:37:17 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Interesting point


Rail guns being after lasers, the highest technology level can be worst than projectiles witch should look like pre historic stuff

So much effort for "nothing" . Stupid engineers Lol
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#404 - 2011-11-12 17:53:56 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Rico Rage wrote:
So to recap CCP stance on this so far:

- Minmatar are OP for lore reasons
- Hybrids suck, but everything else is so screwed up we can't really fix em.
- Naga sucks because Caldari BS's suck, and we can't possibly break away from the chain of suckage and fess up that Raven and Rokh were badly designed to begin with.


Among many things, all this really seems to tell me is that CCP is too scared to change the status quo, and because the status quo is @$%^, things will continue to be as they are because they're afraid of trying to actually balance their game.

*sigh* There goes my hope for this expansion.


Minmatar are Op because no weapons system they have uses cap and they can choose to engage or disengage at will with their superior speed and maneuverability. Also the falloff on AC's is redonkulous. Hybrids don't suck...railguns suck. Blasters do what they do very well. Railguns try to bring DPS to the realm where alpha dominates and then promptly fails. The parimary reason is that ranged combat has been nerfed over time from general ship HP increases to insta-probing close range death squads. Oh and the extreme nerf of torp range for no damage increase was a killer. Railguns can't track....use too much cap/grid/cpu/everything and make my soul hurt. As a caldari born capsuleer I wonder how my brethren can fend off all these threats with THE WORST WEAPONS SYSTEMS IN EVE.

Even the test changes don't bring rails up to par enough. The ranges railguns excell at (ranges no one can shoot back at you at) are no longer present in the game since the 250km locking cap was intro'd years ago. THANKS CCP!! The rokh only gets good beyond 250km beucase no one else can compete at that range. Hell the raven is supposed to be a long-range standoff platform. Cruise missile dps sucks. Torps can't hit at range. So yep. THe rokh at any effective range these days is outclassed by weapon systems (1400mm howitzer II) that use no cap, do very high alpha and can select a spread of damage types not limited to kin and therm.

rail guns SHOULD beat the **** out of artillery and no not just by RoF...they should out alpha, out range and deliver a pin point strike overwhelming any defense. But no...we can't even get halfway there with some decent damage. 10% on a 2700 alpha is still 2970K. That isn't a boost...that is a statisitical outlier compared to the 11-13K hits from minmatar ships. No I don't care that my rof is 3x faster if I can't kill the target I'm shooting at.

Minmatar are OP because CCP wants them that way.

Minmatar = PvP
Caldari = PvE

Every 5 years they throw some spreadsheet balance the way of amarr or gallente, but even then you can see through it. You see it most clearly in the T3s. Gallente and amarr are given a single niche in which the ships are not totally ****. Just look at the Drone and HAM subsystems to see CCPs true plan. They didn't even bother to give HAMs or Drones three bonuses. Meanwhile look at the Loki or Tengu. They are what CCP promised, swiss army knife cruisers able to fill many roles, and do them extremely well. Gallente and Amarr get warmed over HAC rejects.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#405 - 2011-11-12 19:23:49 UTC
That is bull*** - Proteus is the singlehanded most heavily buffertanked T3 cruiser in the game even more tank than a Legion. Also it has a divine tackling bonus easily capable of working with armor fleets.

That said however I'm tired of hearing "optimal bonus is a damage bonuse" talk about Caldari because range plays little to no role in current battles and it makes it impossible to mix stuff like the rokh because of difference in range and huge difference in damage/volley damage.

dammit!!!
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#406 - 2011-11-12 20:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Pinky Denmark wrote:
That is bull*** - Proteus is the singlehanded most heavily buffertanked T3 cruiser in the game even more tank than a Legion. Also it has a divine tackling bonus easily capable of working with armor fleets.


The only role anyone uses the Proteus in is as an overtanked brick with a long point. No other configuration does anything spectacular.

There are countless different viable and popular configurations for both the Loki and the Tengu, which all add something unique. Web range-bonused A-HACs with massive alpha strike? Check. All-purpose, near-unscannable PVE platform? Check. Extreme-range PVP uber-Drake? Check. Useful warfare links on a near-unscannable, off-grid platform? Check.

And the Proteus? Nothing but a lumbering bullet catcher with a long point.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#407 - 2011-11-12 20:25:26 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
That is bull*** - Proteus is the singlehanded most heavily buffertanked T3 cruiser in the game even more tank than a Legion. Also it has a divine tackling bonus easily capable of working with armor fleets.

That said however I'm tired of hearing "optimal bonus is a damage bonuse" talk about Caldari because range plays little to no role in current battles and it makes it impossible to mix stuff like the rokh because of difference in range and huge difference in damage/volley damage.

dammit!!!

Like I said, they give Amarr/gallente a single area where the ships aren't **** so the sheep in Eve don't see through the ruse.

Grats on failing to read and falling for it btw.


Optimal is a damage bonus. It lets you use "close range" ammo at "not close range". Rohk with AM is the range same as Megathron with Uranium, minus 2 base DPS per gun. (36v38, ~5% difference).

So, in a slugging match your optimal is only 4% more damage per level, not 5%. However you gain the ability to hit at a longer range for that 1% less per level. That is hardly a crippling issue.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#408 - 2011-11-12 20:50:51 UTC
you might be right legion and proteus might not be super versatile but they still have areas where they work VERY well...

Also I know the theory about optimal bonus as damage bonus, however:
  • In fleets with other ships you will usually warp-in at fleets lowest range - you can use higher dps ammo, but the other ships have a damage bonus instead.
  • If you engange under the range of your AM ammunition you no longer have an advantage because you cannot go lower
  • If you are shooting further than the other ships you do almost no damage and certainly a low volleydamage
  • You will have trouble keeping the enemy in any position where a railgun might have an advantage.

The Rokh isn't bad and it has advantages, however those are so few in practical pvp something has to be done... Even with a much better tank people will refuse to use it in fleets even should sniper fleets be popular again (why would they with on-site probing and current game mechanics?).

Pinky
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2011-11-12 21:00:07 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
you might be right legion and proteus might not be super versatile but they still have areas where they work VERY well...

Also I know the theory about optimal bonus as damage bonus, however:
  • In fleets with other ships you will usually warp-in at fleets lowest range - you can use higher dps ammo, but the other ships have a damage bonus instead.
  • If you engange under the range of your AM ammunition you no longer have an advantage because you cannot go lower
  • If you are shooting further than the other ships you do almost no damage and certainly a low volleydamage
  • You will have trouble keeping the enemy in any position where a railgun might have an advantage.

The Rokh isn't bad and it has advantages, however those are so few in practical pvp something has to be done... Even with a much better tank people will refuse to use it in fleets even should sniper fleets be popular again (why would they with on-site probing and current game mechanics?).

Pinky

Your logic is horrible.

It doesn't matter if you are under the range of YOUR AM ammo. It matters if you are under the range of THEIR AM ammo. That is when the Optimal bonus doesn't apply.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#410 - 2011-11-12 22:58:26 UTC
The oracle & tornado you can have a half decent tank & good dps, havn't tried talos so could not say.

The naga is what needs some love atm primarily, its tank gets raped in seconds & used with torps its just a sitting duck atm, tank needs buffing that much is sure.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#411 - 2011-11-12 23:33:06 UTC
I threw your railguns ON THE GROUND!!!! I'm AN ADULT!!!! GROOOOUUNNNND!!!!

seeing the damage from rails is like getting my butt hole tased by Hilmar.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#412 - 2011-11-12 23:50:20 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
The oracle & tornado you can have a half decent tank & good dps, havn't tried talos so could not say.

The naga is what needs some love atm primarily, its tank gets raped in seconds & used with torps its just a sitting duck atm, tank needs buffing that much is sure.



WRONG...its GANK needs buffing. screw its tank...these are pure out and out gank ships and splitting bonuses across weapon systems weakens it. either give it bonuses to torps that includes either an explosion radius or explosion velocity bonus...or a flight time bonus even so it is more like a mini raven.. or buff the railguns.

Give the rails a falloff bonus in addition to the optimal range...or a rate of fire bonus. ehh do something to make it shine as a standoff platform like caldari deserve.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#413 - 2011-11-13 04:30:03 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
Interesting point


Rail guns being after lasers, the highest technology level can be worst than projectiles witch should look like pre historic stuff

So much effort for "nothing" . Stupid engineers Lol

because something is more recent doesnt make it better
minmatar guns are all bigger to keep the damage in line with other weapon system
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#414 - 2011-11-14 01:53:51 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
The oracle & tornado you can have a half decent tank & good dps, havn't tried talos so could not say.

The naga is what needs some love atm primarily, its tank gets raped in seconds & used with torps its just a sitting duck atm, tank needs buffing that much is sure.

With max fitting skills i can get a 1600 plate on a talos with full rack of neutrons and a MWD. Buffs to hybrids have been sufficient to allow it to be fairly effective. I managed to destroy quite a few minmatar tier 3's quite easilly, but they might have been just badly piloted. It also killed hac's quite easilly. They kills fast and die fast, so appear to for-fill their purpose. Amarr one however appears to be quite superior, so a bit of further work is needed. You could give it more CPU so it can use e-war or Tc's in the mids,
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#415 - 2011-11-14 06:27:09 UTC
Could you guys maybe, just this once, give Caldari something other than the drake to fly that doesn't suck?

I know it would be a serious break with your tradition, but what the hell.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#416 - 2011-11-14 07:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: LT Alter
In my opinion, ships will never always be used for their determined roles. At the end of the day we will still see the these battlecruisers ripping apart ships smaller ships than just battleships. Honestly, I can't argue the removal of the web bonus on the talos, it would have been fun and useful and I was a little deflated to see its removal but, it would have made killing small ships incredibly easy and in fact TOO easy. The drone bay, in my opinion, should not be removed from the talos, but this would increase its ability to fight smaller ships so it's been removed. My suggestion, though I will probably get chased off this thread with a shotgun on this suggestion but I'm going for it anyway, we give the talos a fighter. Yes, I said it, a single fighter without to ability to replace it with a bunch of small drones. Much like the fighter bay on the mom nerf coming up. 5 hobs without ship boosts do almost exactly the same as a single fireblog (about 100dps). This would allow the talos to put some dps on the floor outside it's gun range yet keep it away from smaller ships, I like the sound of it, just time to do some research now...

10 minutes later after some research: There are several problems with this suggestion I will say from the start, this bay would be useless to new players as they wouldn't have the skills for fighters. Not to mention that the fighter would cost about 1/3 the price of the ship once prices settle down. It's a good idea in concept but in the reality of TQ it wouldn't work. I don't know where to find any common ground to make this work other than the fighter being part of the ship and you miracusly get new one when you dock, not to mention a reduced skill requirement for new players.

I'm open to suggestions and this entire post is speculation so do please take a minute or two and give it some thought before trolling me right off this thread. Thanks for reading!

Sorry if this post is 100% geared toward gallente, it's all I ever fly. Many people may have no love for gallente but it's what I fly and I like it.

I can't wait to see the troll posts in reply to this, sigh.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#417 - 2011-11-14 08:57:47 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
In my opinion, ships will never always be used for their determined roles. At the end of the day we will still see the these battlecruisers ripping apart ships smaller ships than just battleships. Honestly, I can't argue the removal of the web bonus on the talos, it would have been fun and useful and I was a little deflated to see its removal but, it would have made killing small ships incredibly easy and in fact TOO easy. The drone bay, in my opinion, should not be removed from the talos, but this would increase its ability to fight smaller ships so it's been removed. My suggestion, though I will probably get chased off this thread with a shotgun on this suggestion but I'm going for it anyway, we give the talos a fighter. Yes, I said it, a single fighter without to ability to replace it with a bunch of small drones. Much like the fighter bay on the mom nerf coming up. 5 hobs without ship boosts do almost exactly the same as a single fireblog (about 100dps). This would allow the talos to put some dps on the floor outside it's gun range yet keep it away from smaller ships, I like the sound of it, just time to do some research now...

10 minutes later after some research: There are several problems with this suggestion I will say from the start, this bay would be useless to new players as they wouldn't have the skills for fighters. Not to mention that the fighter would cost about 1/3 the price of the ship once prices settle down. It's a good idea in concept but in the reality of TQ it wouldn't work. I don't know where to find any common ground to make this work other than the fighter being part of the ship and you miracusly get new one when you dock, not to mention a reduced skill requirement for new players.

I'm open to suggestions and this entire post is speculation so do please take a minute or two and give it some thought before trolling me right off this thread. Thanks for reading!

Sorry if this post is 100% geared toward gallente, it's all I ever fly. Many people may have no love for gallente but it's what I fly and I like it.

I can't wait to see the troll posts in reply to this, sigh.


It's new and interesting, I like the sound of it, using a sole fighter as an extension of the ship but like you said it's not very feasible or practical and can lead to issues.








I still think the Naga needs love, it can't make use of this double bonus without being set up as a failfit.



Like an above poster said, I too would like to have an option other than the stupid drake, that boring ship with its massively boring missile effects, lack of launchers (real ones anyway, because the mockery on the sides is just lame). The other caldari ships just suck too much, and the Naga seems to be honoring the tradition so far...
JessiJames
Bats Country
#418 - 2011-11-14 11:27:27 UTC

Why?

Minmatar: great
Ammar: good
Caldari: useless
Gallente: useless

Caldari needs a BIG bonus for torpedo explosion velocity, both Drake or Stealth Bomber are better than this. Total waste.

Gallente would be good with either 90% web OR a web range bonus or at least another midslot/lowslot.
If thats not happening, it is way too slow and should at least have a penalty reduction for armor rigs.
Right now its a complete joke.


Totally disappointed.
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#419 - 2011-11-14 11:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: tika te
to me it's interessting to see, that although the new tier3 bc are not intended for tanking and therefor have glasscanon-hitpoints, ppl still try to fit multiple plates and extenders on them...

the "usability" of a ship nowdays seems to base on 2-3 properties:
1. has good dmg out potential/can fit fotm weapon system? if "yes" go to 2. otherwise reject ->"usless ship"
2. can fit solid buffer tank? if "yes" go to 3. otherwise -> "useless paperthin ship is useless"!
3. bufferfitted ship has decent speed/can influence fighting range -> if "yes" ship is good for use, otherwise forget about it..
JessiJames
Bats Country
#420 - 2011-11-14 12:18:37 UTC
tika te wrote:
to me it's interessting to see, that although the new tier3 bc are not intended for tanking and therefor have glasscanon-hitpoints, ppl still try to fit multiple plates and extenders on them...

the "usability" of a ship nowdays seems to base on 2-3 properties:
1. has good dmg out potential/can fit fotm weapon system? if "yes" go to 2. otherwise reject ->"usless ship"
2. can fit solid buffer tank? if "yes" go to 3. otherwise -> "useless paperthin ship is useless"!
3. bufferfitted ship has decent speed/can influence fighting range -> if "yes" ship is good for use, otherwise forget about it..



and in case you havent noticed noone complains about the Tornado

guess why