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The new rapid light missiles and Caracal
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Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#21 - 2013-11-17 13:14:43 UTC
I get the concept Danny, but I don't feel 20% is anything to scoff at.
Also you will deal with uneven numbers of launchers.
Maethilar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-11-17 13:30:34 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Maethilar wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I like the bit where nobody on this forum has worked out that if you split your Launchers in two, you get only slightly less DPS over time but also have the option of a big burst of DPS if needed.

Because apparently that makes a weapon system ****.



I'm sure that splitting weapons doesn't reduces the reload time.


No...

But if you fire one rack to exhaustion, then fire the other rack, you maintain constant DPS.

Which was my point.



You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#23 - 2013-11-17 13:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Maethilar wrote:
You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off.

But the damage is being buffed a lot. Also, you can still use LM Caracal and save yourself a bunch of powergrid for stuff.

Oh god.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-11-17 13:41:24 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Maethilar wrote:
You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off.

But the damage is being buffed a lot. Also, you can still use LM Caracal and save yourself a bunch of powergrid for stuff.

But sustained damage is being nerfed a lot, along with increased powergrid for launchers.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#25 - 2013-11-17 13:49:24 UTC
I'm betting Stoicfaux will run some numbers.

Oh god.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#26 - 2013-11-17 13:55:17 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Maethilar wrote:
You will keep constant half the DPS, since half the launcher will be turned off.

But the damage is being buffed a lot. Also, you can still use LM Caracal and save yourself a bunch of powergrid for stuff.

But sustained damage is being nerfed a lot, along with increased powergrid for launchers.


I think you lose about 20% of your sustained DPS.

But then again you get almost double DPS for rapid enagements such as when burning off gates or if you get tackled and need to quickly kill the tackler.

It has advantages and disadvantages but to say the change makes them bad is fairly small minded.
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-11-17 14:35:54 UTC
Maybe only a name change is in order after the mechanic changes to;

Not Quite So Rapid Light Missile Launchers (NQSRLML) Lol
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#28 - 2013-11-17 16:45:55 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I think you lose about 20% of your sustained DPS.

But then again you get almost double DPS for rapid enagements such as when burning off gates or if you get tackled and need to quickly kill the tackler.

It has advantages and disadvantages but to say the change makes them bad is fairly small minded.


That is one scenario indeed, in the end though outside that scenario which is really not an offensive scenario just defense.
RLML are now tunnel-visioned on frigates only with a 20% sustained dps nerf.
In the end the amount of scenarios possible will show.
For now RLML are a dumb choice for PvE, and with a high degree of certainty will be the last choice for any serious cruiser based team play.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#29 - 2013-11-17 17:37:23 UTC
I tested HAMs vs RMLs. I usied a Cerberus with 3 BDUs plus the launcher types. Nothing on the Cerb will change except the launcher. Ammo will be Caldari Navy light missiles, and Caldari Navy heavy missiles.

I will post combat log, and other toons date of birth. Ships fit will stay the same for both missile types.

HAMs 617.3 DPS
Rate of Fire - 2.5sec
Explosion Radius - 88m
Explosion Velocity - 160.59m/sec

RMLs 340 DPS
Rate of Fire - 3.7sec
Explosion Radius - 28m
Explosion Velocity - 270.3m/sec

Test pilot - 2007-10-10, Armor pilot - 2007-01-21, Shield pilot - 2008-11-23

RMLs -
against Cerberus - MWD on - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD Off - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Thorax - MWD on - 05:53:51 Combat 566 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:54:01 Combat 567 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

HAMs -
against Thorax - MWD on 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 06:22:01 Combat175 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:22:32 Combat 188 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:24:19 Combat 297 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:25:18 Combat 316 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:28:13 Combat 755 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:28:40 Combat 443 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Cerberus - MWD on - 06:32:39 Combat 192 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:41:01 Combat 275 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

Intereting RMLs won against T1s, HAMs won against faction, and with a MWD RMLs won slightly, but also need to take in account the HAMs firing 1.2sec faster. But with MWD off the HAMs won against HACs. Wow did not see that. also this was tested on the regular EVE server, not the test server.

So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed. Their range is much less, explosion radius is more, explain velocity is less and taking a couple seconds from RofF will keep their DPS in check. Don't allow cruisers, BCs or BS to give their explosion bonuses to rapids. Also rockets still won't get the range or DPS HAMs would, and HAMs wouldn't get the DPS torps would, if adjusted right, it could work. See I fixed rapids. If rapids get the 40s reload, rpaids will be pretty much useless and you will be better off with HAMs.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-11-17 17:58:16 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:


So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed.


So if I understand correctly a Rapid Light Rocket Launcher (RLRL)? I love this idea. Maybe CCP could come up with this and leave the RLML alone!
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#31 - 2013-11-17 18:00:18 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
I tested HAMs vs RMLs. I usied a Cerberus with 3 BDUs plus the launcher types. Nothing on the Cerb will change except the launcher. Ammo will be Caldari Navy light missiles, and Caldari Navy heavy missiles.

I will post combat log, and other toons date of birth. Ships fit will stay the same for both missile types.

HAMs 617.3 DPS
Rate of Fire - 2.5sec
Explosion Radius - 88m
Explosion Velocity - 160.59m/sec

RMLs 340 DPS
Rate of Fire - 3.7sec
Explosion Radius - 28m
Explosion Velocity - 270.3m/sec

Test pilot - 2007-10-10, Armor pilot - 2007-01-21, Shield pilot - 2008-11-23

RMLs -
against Cerberus - MWD on - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD Off - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Thorax - MWD on - 05:53:51 Combat 566 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:54:01 Combat 567 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

HAMs -
against Thorax - MWD on 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 06:22:01 Combat175 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:22:32 Combat 188 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:24:19 Combat 297 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:25:18 Combat 316 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:28:13 Combat 755 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:28:40 Combat 443 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Cerberus - MWD on - 06:32:39 Combat 192 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:41:01 Combat 275 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

Intereting RMLs won against T1s, HAMs won against faction, and with a MWD RMLs won slightly, but also need to take in account the HAMs firing 1.2sec faster. But with MWD off the HAMs won against HACs. Wow did not see that. also this was tested on the regular EVE server, not the test server.

So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed. Their range is much less, explosion radius is more, explain velocity is less and taking a couple seconds from RofF will keep their DPS in check. Don't allow cruisers, BCs or BS to give their explosion bonuses to rapids. Also rockets still won't get the range or DPS HAMs would, and HAMs wouldn't get the DPS torps would, if adjusted right, it could work. See I fixed rapids. If rapids get the 40s reload, rpaids will be pretty much useless and you will be better off with HAMs.


Why are you shooting cruisers with c n light missiles? Switch to fury.this entire test is filled with error. Not really sure what you are tyring to draw from this data...
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#32 - 2013-11-17 18:41:17 UTC
That test proves HAMs and RMLs aren't that far apart, and it's that easy. It also proves RLMs are slightly OP, but that it can be fixed without 40sec reload times. Which I also explained. Say what you will but to test different weapons you have to have a base ammo, real work or EVE. That was faction ammo. The test prove we were both right and both wrong. Thing that threw me off is the Thorax the diff wasn't too big, but the stabber it was huge. HAMs did way less DPS compared to RLMs, and same with faction ships HAMs did way more DPS then RLMs. So argue all you want, but I did a fair and legit test. If you still can't get past your pride that's on you. The best thing this "might" have done is give CCP something to think about besides ruining rapids.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#33 - 2013-11-17 18:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
Quote:
So if I understand correctly a Rapid Light Rocket Launcher (RLRL)? I love this idea. Maybe CCP could come up with this and leave the RLML alone!


No I'm saying get rid of RMLs and RHMLs and replace them with Rapid rocket launchers, and rapid assault missile launcher, by doing this it will take away all the things that made the rapids now OP away, HAMs and rocket T2 ammo is for either massive damage or range, but they will loose much of their range issue, they will have more explosion raduis, and less explosion velocity. They will need 2 to 3 seconds added to RofF, and cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships explpsion bonuses will have to not include rapid launchers, but I think if they was done rapid launchers wouldn't be OP anymore. Even T2 damage missiles have a much higher explosion radius and have less range. Only isue is the 19th is only a couple of days away. Next time Chessur argue with more earlier haha

Pretty much if you plan to keep rapids at any use, try to push this to CCP. I rather have HAM/Rocket rapids then 40s reload rapids. All honestly I rather keep them like they are, but that isn't going to happen
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-11-17 19:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
That test proves HAMs and RMLs aren't that far apart, and it's that easy. It also proves RLMs are slightly OP, but that it can be fixed without 40sec reload times. Which I also explained. Say what you will but to test different weapons you have to have a base ammo, real work or EVE. That was faction ammo.

I don't see how faction ammo is a "base ammo" because one missiles are light and the other one's are heavy (assault). The fact that both are faction IMO doesn't mean anything. You were comparing faction HAM, which is best for shooting cruisers with faction LM, which isn't best for the same job - it should have been Fury light missiles.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#35 - 2013-11-17 19:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
I choice to use faction for the simple reason you don't use specialty ammo to do a base test, you use ammo that is closely related. Now furys will probably put HACs with MWDs over the top, but HAMs would still probably win the no MWDs, and faction cruisers still would have been rocked worse by HAMs then by fury lights. As RMLs already rocked T1 cruisers, that would just make them rock them more. And the 1.2secs faster RofF everyone seems to over look, when really that would make a pretty big differance when it comes to DPS, as NO missiles can alfa a target, it always takes a few shots, and if that is the case RofF comes into place.

Either way the test proved RMLs are slightly OP. If we want rapids to not be worthless with 40sec reload, push for them to be HAMs and rockets. Other wise we have a worthless launcher coming. I am just trying to save rapids anyway possible at this point, even though I don't think they can be.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-11-17 19:54:37 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
So argue all you want, but I did a fair and legit test. If you still can't get past your pride that's on you.


Physician, heal thyself...

The problem isn't that the comparison wasn't fair and legit, it's that it wasn't hugely meaningful. RLML should be firing Fury against cruisers, HAMs should assume that the target is webbed.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#37 - 2013-11-17 20:11:34 UTC
I didn't web or scram, I had both test use MWDs and turn off MWDS, The RMLs won hands down with MWDs on and off against T1 cruisers, HAMs won hands down with MWDs on and off against faction cruisers, and It was pretty much a tie against HACs with MWDs on RLMs won slightly, and off HAMs wons slightly, again the HAMs extra 1.2secs don't ever come into play with would bring thier DPS up also. Furies or not, the numbers wouldn't be hugely different for this test. Now we can bring in ALL different factors, scrams, webs, disruptors, TPs, etc ,etc ,etc but as this test took over 3 hours. I think the base test against the 2 different missile types was fair, legit and complete to show what both are able to do against three different cruiser types. When I fly my Cerb I use a scram and sometimes web, so HAMs would be the one to go with, in I flied a Caracal I'd use a disruptor so RMLs would be the pick, and that is what this test showed to a point. I'm not adjusted a test to please everyone, it was a base test against 3 ships armor fit, and 3 ships shield fit, with a ship the used the same set up besides changing out the launchers. If you all like to add on go ahead, I'm fine with it. My point is I don't want 40sec reload time on rapids, that is crazy. This test showed if rapids were changed from lights and heavy missiles to rockets and heavy assaults, most of the OP issues would be fixed with a few other adjustments i.e. RofF increased a couple seconds, and cruisers, BCs and BSs explosrion bonuses not added to rapid launchers.
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#38 - 2013-11-17 20:40:20 UTC
Chessur wrote:


Why are you shooting cruisers with c n light missiles? Switch to fury.this entire test is filled with error. Not really sure what you are tyring to draw from this data...


Surely shooting the high damage ammo (Fury) at cruisers. To which it will still apply full damage will just show even more in favour of the RLML indicating it is even more OP than the test already carried out?

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-11-17 21:10:30 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Chessur wrote:

Why are you shooting cruisers with c n light missiles? Switch to fury.this entire test is filled with error. Not really sure what you are tyring to draw from this data...

Surely shooting the high damage ammo (Fury) at cruisers. To which it will still apply full damage will just show even more in favour of the RLML indicating it is even more OP than the test already carried out?

It's not that RLML are OP but rather HAM's are UP.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#40 - 2013-11-17 21:18:03 UTC
HAMs aren't really UP, they might be slightly, but with great missile skills HAMs are pretty good really. same rockets. Torps I'm not sure I don't use them like I use to. Would it be nice to get them a bit better yes, but RMLs are OP, it's something I didn't want to believe, but it's true. You can't have one missile launcher that does what close range and long range guns do in one. And RML do that now. They also don't seem to be effected at all by the speed of the ship, every other weapon system is effected by ship speed, so are they OP yes. But I think there is a way to fix all those issues, and I have posted it. Will it happen, doubtful, but I full heartly believe it would fix the rapids OP issue.