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Covert Cyno in HighSec

Author
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2014-02-22 19:13:21 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
can we get a rig added so that we can send non covert ships through a covert cyno.

small rig only!!!

"small covert-cynosaural field adaptation"

allows (when fitted) the ship to use a covert jump portal.

bonus: able to jump using covert cyno
penalty: mass of hull increased 30%



you wona dup ceptors and dictor via covops? No no ......
Rammix
TheMurk
#102 - 2014-02-25 20:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Samara Anninen wrote:
Also, when somebody says something about using d-scan even in highsec to look for probes, my mouse begs for mercy, because it's left button still hurts because of being used for clicking "Scan" button, when I lived in WH. In WH you are paid good enough for d-scan and probes been the only intel source, in highsec - you are not.

Seems you've not lived in w-space for long enough, otherwise you would've got accustomed to d-scan.
And, in highsec you don't have to use it unless you're wardecced. But if you ARE wardecced you should absolutely use d-scan whether you see hostiles in local or not (and regardless of covcyno mechanics) - because high level of environmental awareness decreases your risks very significantly. If you ignore such fundamental precautions like using d-scan, safe spots, insta-dock/undock spots during wartime... well, you're doomed. Big smile
Also, as it was mentioned several times in this topic, being wardecced you either deal with the danger by being super-cautious or being ready to fight back, or you just have to stay in NPC corps. I personally would choose paranoia over losing ships to some guys looking for an easy prey.

p.s. tl;dr: just wanted to say one more time, that introduction of covcynos to highsec doesn't mean any additional precautions. If you're cautious enough during wartime you will be safe enough regardless of covcyno changes should they come.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Samara Anninen
#103 - 2014-02-26 10:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Samara Anninen
Rammix wrote:

Seems you've not lived in w-space for long enough, otherwise you would've got accustomed to d-scan.

I have - it's not hard or something - i just don't think permaclicking of one button is a good game mechanic, especially to attract to game one-month-old new players who have just joined wardecced highsec corp.


Also, you can never be sure if that combat probes are directed against you and nobody else in highsec (since highsec is overcrowded by lots of neutral players from different corps who can be wardecced too) and you'll have to warp out anyway if you see them on d-scan. You can say that you can use short-range d-scan to see only close probes but the problem is that experienced scanner will scan you down so fast you'll probably wouldn't even saw his probes near you before he would be already warping on you in cloaky ship (especially after latest scan interface improvements).
So, any troll can just fly through popular highsec systems and drop his probes to make every player from every wardecced corp dock Smile I don't think it's a good gameplay.

You can say - don't do business in crowded systems but it doesn't work either since a) it's a big problem to find such system, especially with resources you need, b) locator agents mean "they'll find you anyway"
Rammix
TheMurk
#104 - 2014-02-26 11:47:07 UTC
Samara Anninen wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Seems you've not lived in w-space for long enough, otherwise you would've got accustomed to d-scan.

I have - it's not hard or something - i just don't think permaclicking of one button is a good game mechanic, especially to attract to game one-month-old new players who have just joined wardecced highsec corp.


Also, you can never be sure if that combat probes are directed against you and nobody else in highsec (since highsec is overcrowded by lots of neutral players from different corps who can be wardecced too) and you'll have to warp out anyway if you see them on d-scan. You can say that you can use short-range d-scan to see only close probes but the problem is that experienced scanner will scan you down so fast you'll probably wouldn't even saw his probes near you before he would be already warping on you in cloaky ship (especially after latest scan interface improvements).
So, any troll can just fly through popular highsec systems and drop his probes to make every player from every wardecced corp dock Smile I don't think it's a good gameplay.

You can say - don't do business in crowded systems but it doesn't work either since a) it's a big problem to find such system, especially with resources you need, b) locator agents mean "they'll find you anyway"

Still, it has nothing special to do with covcynos. Either way you have to be cautious during wartime. And avoid missions which don't have acceleration gates (not too many of them). Miners can also hug their beloved rocks inside mission anomalies - in cooperation with ratters in the same corp, for example; and it means additional eyes.
If introduction of covcynos to highsec leads to more cooperation between carebear players - even better for them and for general socialization in-game.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#105 - 2014-02-26 11:58:27 UTC
Introduce a special Cyno Concord Tax as ISK Sink let say 1 million ISK for every System you had to travel through. (Shortest Way)
Jaari Val'Dara
Grim Sleepers
#106 - 2014-02-26 12:45:58 UTC
Well I would support anything that would make black ops more popular. Though obviously I agree that everyone jumping through would need to be made suspect.
Samara Anninen
#107 - 2014-02-26 16:55:08 UTC
Rammix wrote:

Still, it has nothing special to do with covcynos. Either way you have to be cautious during wartime. And avoid missions which don't have acceleration gates (not too many of them). Miners can also hug their beloved rocks inside mission anomalies - in cooperation with ratters in the same corp, for example; and it means additional eyes.
If introduction of covcynos to highsec leads to more cooperation between carebear players - even better for them and for general socialization in-game.


It has. Troll can't be seen in your local as red if he is not realy red Smile
This way is simple - you see red in local, you warp out. You don't have to guess are they looking for you or somebody else and at last warp out anyway because of your expensive RNI - red in local means 100% danger , probes in highsec full of players - maybe danger, maybe troll, maybe somebody just accidentally pressed probe launcher.
Cooperation is good but forcing to cooperate is not really what EVE needs, IMO, since some players like playing EVE solo or semisolo and it's ok.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#108 - 2014-02-26 17:28:43 UTC
Samara Anninen wrote:
...
Cooperation is good but forcing to cooperate is not really what EVE needs, IMO, since some players like playing EVE solo or semisolo and it's ok.

In my opinion, cooperation being forced is bad, that is true.

Cooperation being rewarded, to the point where it would always be a preferred option when available, I feel that is important in an MMO.
Working together takes both time and effort, above and beyond the group activities themselves, since you need to find and coordinate with others.

Otherwise we are all single player except for social bunnies and gankers, since nobody has incentive to make the effort to work together. That is my take on this.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#109 - 2014-02-26 17:35:45 UTC
Rammix wrote:

Still, it has nothing special to do with covcynos. Either way you have to be cautious during wartime. And avoid missions which don't have acceleration gates (not too many of them). Miners can also hug their beloved rocks inside mission anomalies - in cooperation with ratters in the same corp, for example; and it means additional eyes.
If introduction of covcynos to highsec leads to more cooperation between carebear players - even better for them and for general socialization in-game.


Covert cynos in hisec would be broken because no amount of caution can protect you from them.

It is naive to think it would lead to more cooperation rather than more NPC-corp squatting.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Samara Anninen
#110 - 2014-02-26 17:46:02 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Cooperation being rewarded, to the point where it would always be a preferred option when available, I feel that is important in an MMO.


A bit of offtopic.

Yep, as a "semisolo" player, I think, cooperation should be built around "1+1 < 2 " idea, meaning that two cooperating players should be able to do more than two solo players with the same initial conditions.
In the same time "1=0" (cooperate or die) would be wrong not just mathematically Smile
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#111 - 2014-02-26 19:38:20 UTC
Cool idea, but wouldn't it make highsec space feel more cramped all of a sudden?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#112 - 2014-02-26 19:54:30 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Cool idea, but wouldn't it make highsec space feel more cramped all of a sudden?

u mean increased player interaction?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#113 - 2014-02-26 19:55:10 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Rammix wrote:

Still, it has nothing special to do with covcynos. Either way you have to be cautious during wartime. And avoid missions which don't have acceleration gates (not too many of them). Miners can also hug their beloved rocks inside mission anomalies - in cooperation with ratters in the same corp, for example; and it means additional eyes.
If introduction of covcynos to highsec leads to more cooperation between carebear players - even better for them and for general socialization in-game.


Covert cynos in hisec would be broken because no amount of caution can protect you from them.

It is naive to think it would lead to more cooperation rather than more NPC-corp squatting.

It sounds to me, like you are implying that travel is the most significant obstacle being faced by those interested in space combat.

Since Covert Cynos would make travel easier, for a specifically limited group of ships, I am not seeing your conclusion being reached under conditions outside of a war dec.
And under a war dec, in my opinion it is only a half truth.

From my view, no front line ship is capable of using these covert cynos, only what I would describe as "their overpriced and tactically diminished cousins".
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#114 - 2014-02-26 20:33:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Cool idea, but wouldn't it make highsec space feel more cramped all of a sudden?

u mean increased player interaction?

no, I mean when you can go from one point on the map to another in mere seconds that makes vast amounts of space little and insignificant.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#115 - 2014-02-26 20:50:26 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Cool idea, but wouldn't it make highsec space feel more cramped all of a sudden?

u mean increased player interaction?

no, I mean when you can go from one point on the map to another in mere seconds that makes vast amounts of space little and insignificant.

I am not seeing the impact which you suggest, making travel insignificant.

The only variety of ships able to use this, in my opinion are also the least useful to transport goods and fight with.
(In their respective categories)

Add to this, they are cost prohibitive to use in a fight outside of a war dec.
In the case of a war dec, I believe they are a last resort when compared with more competent ships, which also tend to be far less expensive.

These ships seem to me, to be something of a novelty in high sec far too often. I don't see them as being fit for normal use, which this might change in some limited examples.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#116 - 2014-02-26 21:03:01 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Cool idea, but wouldn't it make highsec space feel more cramped all of a sudden?

u mean increased player interaction?

no, I mean when you can go from one point on the map to another in mere seconds that makes vast amounts of space little and insignificant.


u realise u have to send a ship there first right? and it has to be a particular ship, and only particular ships can jump through. and those particular ships arent the biggest and slowest kind of ships either.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#117 - 2014-02-26 22:07:09 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I am not seeing the impact which you suggest, making travel insignificant.

The only variety of ships able to use this, in my opinion are also the least useful to transport goods and fight with.
(In their respective categories)

Add to this, they are cost prohibitive to use in a fight outside of a war dec.
In the case of a war dec, I believe they are a last resort when compared with more competent ships, which also tend to be far less expensive.

These ships seem to me, to be something of a novelty in high sec far too often. I don't see them as being fit for normal use, which this might change in some limited examples.

Good point.
Daichi Yamato wrote:
u realise u have to send a ship there first right? and it has to be a particular ship, and only particular ships can jump through. and those particular ships arent the biggest and slowest kind of ships either.

Yes I do realise that, but they are big enough and slow enough, that was my main concern.
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#118 - 2014-02-27 06:39:55 UTC
Rammix wrote:



Weaker points:
Has potential to create network of covcyno service providers (like current freighting organizations) for super-fast covert travel. Though, this means more characters with suspect flag at a moment of time, which means more pvp targets.
Inexperienced "pure" carebear corporations have to adapt to potentially higher activity of wardeccers, or at last have to start to use mercenary services.


for this exact reason, no. miners and carebears already have it pretty rough. they are always the target of WDers, suicide ganks, bumps, fines for mining in certain highsec. we do not need to make it harder on them. highsec industrialists main goal is to make isk, not necessarily to have fun. also, doing this could crash a marker or two, because this may cause a huge decrease in miners and builders, leading to huge inflated prices of ore and minerals.

Many people think that PVP is the be all, end all of this game. this is simply not true. while EVE tends to be PVP heavy, PVP cant survive without miners and manufacturers. no ships means no PVP.

Lets stop focusing on making life harder for the people who are the supporting base of the game.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#119 - 2014-02-27 14:44:44 UTC
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Rammix wrote:



Weaker points:
Has potential to create network of covcyno service providers (like current freighting organizations) for super-fast covert travel. Though, this means more characters with suspect flag at a moment of time, which means more pvp targets.
Inexperienced "pure" carebear corporations have to adapt to potentially higher activity of wardeccers, or at last have to start to use mercenary services.


for this exact reason, no. miners and carebears already have it pretty rough. they are always the target of WDers, suicide ganks, bumps, fines for mining in certain highsec. we do not need to make it harder on them. highsec industrialists main goal is to make isk, not necessarily to have fun. also, doing this could crash a marker or two, because this may cause a huge decrease in miners and builders, leading to huge inflated prices of ore and minerals.

Many people think that PVP is the be all, end all of this game. this is simply not true. while EVE tends to be PVP heavy, PVP cant survive without miners and manufacturers. no ships means no PVP.

Lets stop focusing on making life harder for the people who are the supporting base of the game.

You are expecting gankers to suddenly switch over to using expensive ships with comparatively limited combat ability?

Simply because they might be able to use a covert cyno, which requires a local ship allied to them present in order to use.

I feel you are either stretching a point, or missing one. The idea someone will issue a war dec just so they can use overpriced hardware to gank miners, I find beyond reasonable expectations.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#120 - 2014-02-27 15:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:


Many people think that PVP is the be all, end all of this game. this is simply not true. while EVE tends to be PVP heavy, PVP cant survive without miners and manufacturers. no ships means no PVP.

Lets stop focusing on making life harder for the people who are the supporting base of the game.


comments like this always makes me cringe.

first, if half the miners disappeared tomorrow, supply of minerals would go down and prices would go up. making mining more valuable. those who do it would get richer, and those who dont would have incentive to take it up.

second, many miners are capable of defending themselves. they will be just fine 'supporting the base of the game' as they always have.

third, this is a PvP game. combat between players is its focus. the market is PvP and mining is also PvP. PvP heavy is an understatement.

fourth, miners who dnt want to learn to defend themselves make themselves easy target. dnt want to be attacked? learn to shoot back.

what u dnt seem to realise is that making things more dangerous for miners only hurts dumb, lazy and unsocial miners. Where as miners who are smart, work hard and make friends would benefit. did u think about how it would be easier to bait war deccers into a trap using cyno's?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs