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Where are the CSM 8 Summer summit minutes ?

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Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#41 - 2013-11-14 15:13:02 UTC
I just wanted to drop in and say that one of the best game developers out there, Stardock entertainment, tended to reel people in by sharing pretty much everything about game development - why things weren't practical, why the AI does what it does, what they were doing to improve it, etc. Game dev journals, basically.

What you seem to be saying is that the public cannot handle the possible disappointment of you not being able to implement a feature. What I think is that perhaps if you would look through and explain why you can't, the challenges, etc., you're going to have a more understanding player base. A player base that says, "Yeah, they looked at that, but it doesn't work with the engine." Or whatever it happens to be that we wanted that couldn't be delivered.

The point is, why bother to operate under an NDA anyway? We know the CSM isn't going to necessarily implement what we want, but we'd like to know what it's talking about, and why things aren't getting thrown in.
Exar Kuun
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2013-11-14 15:28:29 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak.


Good to hear. I know that you can't give us a firm date, but can you tell us what kind of timeframe do you foresee them being released? Are we talking days, weeks, months here?


I'm hoping to have them all out during next week. In the meantime, hopefully nothing catches fire and forces me to put on my fire fighter costume (which is quite fetching, I might add).


No, but we vote and if a certain CSM representative says they are going to do this or that or stand for XXX. When we read ther minutes it tells us how they ACTUALLY conducted themselves and what are their priorities and if that aligns for what we voted for.
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#43 - 2013-11-14 16:29:25 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
I just wanted to drop in and say that one of the best game developers out there, Stardock entertainment, tended to reel people in by sharing pretty much everything about game development - why things weren't practical, why the AI does what it does, what they were doing to improve it, etc. Game dev journals, basically.


This is why they're called "dev blogs". I feel dev blogs have, in many cases, been far more watered down in recent times.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
Othran
Route One
#44 - 2013-11-14 16:44:20 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
I just wanted to drop in and say that one of the best game developers out there, Stardock entertainment,


Slighly off-topic but I am a long-term fan of Stardock - all the way back to OS/2 Essentials. Brad Wardell is one of the good guys.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#45 - 2013-11-14 17:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
We, EVE players, are a rabid and unapreciative bunch. The minutes have their uses but it takes WAY too much effort&time from both CSM as CCP to produce them. Are they good reading material with lots of shiny bits of info? Sure but it's not worth the time and money spent, I'm sure since the vast majority of players never have to cough up that time or money they're entitled as fck so people will always ask and whine for more.

The minutes thing needs a rethink, perhaps a quarterly (and then actually stick to it) "AMA, 5 questions asked by the CSM which CCP will answer" sort of thing. We need less official and bureacratic bullshit, which only keeps the bureacrats happy, and more streamlined, easy to handle and more up to date information. Less hassle, less outdated stuff, less of a burden.
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#46 - 2013-11-14 17:12:57 UTC
Othran wrote:
Jythier Smith wrote:
I just wanted to drop in and say that one of the best game developers out there, Stardock entertainment,


Slighly off-topic but I am a long-term fan of Stardock - all the way back to OS/2 Essentials. Brad Wardell is one of the good guys.


Yes, yes he is.

I'm not old enough for OS/2 but I've bought many games from him just because his name was on it. I love the transparency of the 'crappiness' that his company had turned into lately and the way he fixed it, and that he shared the whole story with us. Makes you want to buy stuff from him, you know?

Anyway, CCP I only want to buy stuff from because EVE is awesome.
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#47 - 2013-11-14 20:32:25 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:

What you seem to be saying is that the public cannot handle the possible disappointment of you not being able to implement a feature. What I think is that perhaps if you would look through and explain why you can't, the challenges, etc., you're going to have a more understanding player base. A player base that says, "Yeah, they looked at that, but it doesn't work with the engine." Or whatever it happens to be that we wanted that couldn't be delivered.

Honestly, I can say that this is pretty experimentally true: the playerbase at large can't really handle it. How do I know? Look at all the times the CSM is accused of "apologizing for CCP" whenever the CSM tries to explain why something won't work or won't get added or won't get adjusted on a certain timescale. Hell, it even happened with the SMA thing, and that ended up completely fixed partly because of CSM efforts.

It's a common thread I see in a lot of posts-- people are sure that "we can handle it', but then this one thing that they raged really hard about was *different* it was *important* y'see. While the CSM isn't totally immune to this, there are only 14 of us, and so one member very mad about something doesn't look like or sound like or feel like a chorus of angry voices-- it's just one guy who's really worried about this one thing, and we can sit down and have a talk about it.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#48 - 2013-11-14 20:44:35 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Jythier Smith wrote:

What you seem to be saying is that the public cannot handle the possible disappointment of you not being able to implement a feature. What I think is that perhaps if you would look through and explain why you can't, the challenges, etc., you're going to have a more understanding player base. A player base that says, "Yeah, they looked at that, but it doesn't work with the engine." Or whatever it happens to be that we wanted that couldn't be delivered.

Honestly, I can say that this is pretty experimentally true: the playerbase at large can't really handle it. How do I know? Look at all the times the CSM is accused of "apologizing for CCP" whenever the CSM tries to explain why something won't work or won't get added or won't get adjusted on a certain timescale. Hell, it even happened with the SMA thing, and that ended up completely fixed partly because of CSM efforts.

It's a common thread I see in a lot of posts-- people are sure that "we can handle it', but then this one thing that they raged really hard about was *different* it was *important* y'see. While the CSM isn't totally immune to this, there are only 14 of us, and so one member very mad about something doesn't look like or sound like or feel like a chorus of angry voices-- it's just one guy who's really worried about this one thing, and we can sit down and have a talk about it.


I just read the tears in the Pirate thread in C&P.

I'm pretty sure you're right.

I thought this game was for smart people...
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-11-14 20:53:34 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:

So far I see 3 reason why the minutes are not out yet:
CCP, CCP, CCP


Oh I can assure you that you change all of those to just saying "CCP Dolan" only once. As I said earlier, I have all the minutes and now that there are no more fires that I am fighting I am working on them full speed.

Everything else I wrote is merely about how I want to revise and improve the minutes process. Right now the minutes are a rather time consuming process for both CCP and the CSM, and I am a huge fan of efficiency. If I can streamline the process to retain all the things that are great about the minutes, and perhaps even find new great things, while cutting out a lot of the negatives and the fluff, then I will be a happy man.

I'll probably be discussing this endeavor as we near the winter summit, as the community in general (as the reader) is also involved in the process and I'm interested to hear your feedback. This was just me talking about for the first time.


Can we swap one for "Somer" please?

Dodixie > Hek
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#50 - 2013-11-15 01:34:32 UTC
I absolutely agree that minutes should not be cut in any way. Especially now, when far more work goes on outside of the summit than ever before, the minutes are one of the last remaining ways for voters to evaluate their reps.

What I don't understand is why the CCP review would take nearly this long. You, CCP Dolan, should not be reviewing all the video. If the minutes are produced quickly enough (which I think even CSM 8 would admit did *not* happen this time around), you and the other CCP staff who were in the room should be able to check the minutes for accuracy.

For NDA issues, I 100% agree with the statement that the minutes should not be how things are revealed. I may be a little internet famous because that was done in the past ("I am a small portion of the community"), and it is clearly not the way to go. If sessions are talking about heavily NDA'd things, they should be delayed, and released after the appropriate dev blogs. I personally would rather have more complete but delayed minutes to the chopped up minutes that were sometimes produced in the past.

People that went to the summit and didn't write up minutes should not be attending the next summit. Hell, were it up to me, people that *didn't* attend and didn't produce minutes should not be flown to Iceland. You should make the 7 people that go to Fanfest on CCP's dime the 7 members that wrote up the most sessions, at the very least.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
SeenButNotHeard
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-11-15 02:24:28 UTC
This thread is hilarious.

As if CCP give a flying monkey about the CSM. I think the lack of info shows the true contempt towards the playerbase.

Dolan has been firefighting? Firefighting what? I haven't seen him all over recent posts, putting out fiires, smothering discontent. Frankly I haven't seen less blue on the forums for years.

I don't understand how such a large company screws up customer service so badly. Have you given up on us? As demanding as we are, surely 60m a year is worth a bit of effort.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#52 - 2013-11-25 17:19:01 UTC
So did I just completely miss the CSM 8 minutes getting released or are we just at the point where we should throw in the towel and hope that we get some kind of update from CSM 9?
Trillian Stargazer
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-11-25 18:27:31 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
So did I just completely miss the CSM 8 minutes getting released or are we just at the point where we should throw in the towel and hope that we get some kind of update from CSM 9?


This is a good question.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-11-25 18:41:35 UTC
Yeah at this point we're kinda wondering that ourselves. What?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#55 - 2013-11-25 20:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Jythier Smith wrote:
I just wanted to drop in and say that one of the best game developers out there, Stardock entertainment, tended to reel people in by sharing pretty much everything about game development - why things weren't practical, why the AI does what it does, what they were doing to improve it, etc. Game dev journals, basically.

What you seem to be saying is that the public cannot handle the possible disappointment of you not being able to implement a feature. What I think is that perhaps if you would look through and explain why you can't, the challenges, etc., you're going to have a more understanding player base. A player base that says, "Yeah, they looked at that, but it doesn't work with the engine." Or whatever it happens to be that we wanted that couldn't be delivered.

The point is, why bother to operate under an NDA anyway? We know the CSM isn't going to necessarily implement what we want, but we'd like to know what it's talking about, and why things aren't getting thrown in.

It's true, this particular public cannot handle the possible disappointment. It can't handle disappointment, or getting part of what it wants, or getting what it actually got (without ever having thought about what it even wanted). GD would argue about a free cup of coffee-- it was too hot, too cold, too small, too big, too much cream, not enough cream, etc. etc. Dolan gave you several perfectly understandable and informative replies, and people are still quibbling. Roll
MestariBation
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2013-11-25 20:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: MestariBation
Bolton's desk?

edit:Dolan

Send me isk im poor
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#57 - 2013-11-25 20:36:06 UTC
Is that column of ash coming from Katla or CCP HQ? I can't make the source out from the satellite image.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#58 - 2013-11-25 20:57:25 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Yeah at this point we're kinda wondering that ourselves. What?


Ask CCP to hire stenographers next time. This way if they're to waste the minutes, they will not waste your time too. What?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2013-11-25 22:17:32 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak.


Good to hear. I know that you can't give us a firm date, but can you tell us what kind of timeframe do you foresee them being released? Are we talking days, weeks, months here?


I'm hoping to have them all out during next week. In the meantime, hopefully nothing catches fire and forces me to put on my fire fighter costume (which is quite fetching, I might add).


Might I add a humble wish for a logi SoE ship that is fireguard themed (bluelight and siren included)? I would name it "Dolans Costume". Smile
SeenButNotHeard
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-12-03 00:01:10 UTC
My last post was a little harsh, for which I apologise.

That said - I think we should rename "The Minutes" to "The Months" Big smile