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Where are the CSM 8 Summer summit minutes ?

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CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2013-11-13 19:36:09 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:

So far I see 3 reason why the minutes are not out yet:
CCP, CCP, CCP


Oh I can assure you that you change all of those to just saying "CCP Dolan" only once. As I said earlier, I have all the minutes and now that there are no more fires that I am fighting I am working on them full speed.

Everything else I wrote is merely about how I want to revise and improve the minutes process. Right now the minutes are a rather time consuming process for both CCP and the CSM, and I am a huge fan of efficiency. If I can streamline the process to retain all the things that are great about the minutes, and perhaps even find new great things, while cutting out a lot of the negatives and the fluff, then I will be a happy man.

I'll probably be discussing this endeavor as we near the winter summit, as the community in general (as the reader) is also involved in the process and I'm interested to hear your feedback. This was just me talking about for the first time.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-11-13 19:41:00 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:


Oh I can assure you that you change all of those to just saying "CCP Dolan" only once. As I said earlier, I have all the minutes and now that there are no more fires that I am fighting I am working on them full speed.....



Shouldn't you be working on the minutes now instead of posting on the forums ? P

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#23 - 2013-11-13 19:43:45 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:

So far I see 3 reason why the minutes are not out yet:
CCP, CCP, CCP


Oh I can assure you that you change all of those to just saying "CCP Dolan" only once. As I said earlier, I have all the minutes and now that there are no more fires that I am fighting I am working on them full speed.

Everything else I wrote is merely about how I want to revise and improve the minutes process. Right now the minutes are a rather time consuming process for both CCP and the CSM, and I am a huge fan of efficiency. If I can streamline the process to retain all the things that are great about the minutes, and perhaps even find new great things, while cutting out a lot of the negatives and the fluff, then I will be a happy man.

I'll probably be discussing this endeavor as we near the winter summit, as the community in general (as the reader) is also involved in the process and I'm interested to hear your feedback. This was just me talking about for the first time.


Good luck Dolan, if you need to cram for the minutes you can have some of my Quafe Zero Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#24 - 2013-11-13 19:43:52 UTC
Thanks for giving us feedback about the matter however.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#25 - 2013-11-13 19:45:39 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
lack of recognition at work and being underpaid – all these factors can strengthen tendencies towards burnout.

you mean like 'working' for a literally never satisfied playerbase who only ever notices the body to **** on them?

Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate, actually.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#26 - 2013-11-13 20:02:49 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
I guess she's one of the "amateur models" you said you have at CCP ?


I'm pretty sure that I am the only "amateur model" at CCP, but that is just a hobby. You are talking about CCP Mimic, she is a member of the GM Team.


...and you just fed the slobbering neckbeards. Congratulations. Twisted
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#27 - 2013-11-13 20:04:26 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
lack of recognition at work and being underpaid – all these factors can strengthen tendencies towards burnout.

you mean like 'working' for a literally never satisfied playerbase who only ever notices the body to **** on them?

Yeah, that sounds pretty accurate, actually.


This and $2 buys you a cup of coffee.

I have done rl un(der)paid volunteer work for over 4 years, and minute writing was also a part of it.
What I got out of those years was human networking and open doors, as a freelancer I can now go places others can not.

As a mercenary you should know the value of good contacts Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#28 - 2013-11-13 20:11:22 UTC
CCP Dolan, while you may say it's bad for hearing what CCP is up to, there's a lot of what CCP is up to in the minutes that is important for us. It involved indications of what's being focused on. Why certain ideas are currently impractical. What CCP would like to do someday in the future. A lot of that I've gleaned far better from CSM minutes than anywhere else.

I know there are many of us that would prefer to hear things subject to change or get put off for three years, then wait for every statement to be PR-vetted. And I'd argue that a more open, up-front communication protocol with players will make them more understanding of the challenges the developers and the company faces as it moves forward. Information breeds understanding, and understanding breeds compassion.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#29 - 2013-11-13 20:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
CCP Dolan wrote:
(...)

I think that in the past, people have viewed the minutes as some sort of delivery mechanism for hints about upcoming expansion/features. I pretty firmly disagree with that notion. The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.


Well, there goes the last ounce of usefulness the CSM had... Roll

When the past is bad and the present is bad, the only hope is the future. Yet neither the CSM nor CCP consider relevant to hint on the future; we the lemmings can just keep paying and wait and see it delivered on a platter for us to praise and admire and don't say a word until then, because we don't even need to know what you're cooking with our """14% representatives""".

I am feeling that the more the CSM is of use to CCP, the less it is of use to the average Joe, even if he managed to have some CSM elected who accidentally could represent him.

The only review i need to do on the CSM 8, is that 13 of those guys don't represent me at all.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-11-13 21:08:48 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
The minutes, as they have existed, are responsible for burning out more CSM's than any other activity, because they are a monotonous and lengthy task.

As Mike Azariah noted, Mining is like Minuting without the U and T.

Personally, I feel that minuting is useful for separating the wheat from the chaff. Doing a minutes session is the EVE equivalent of surviving Marine Boot Camp; doing multiple sessions for a single summit is like making it through BUD/S. We CSM Minute-men (and -women) are all Internet Hardpeople, not to mention flaming masochists. Do not deny us our pain.

CCP Dolan wrote:
I feel that we can try and find a way to preserve what I see as the key value of the minutes (letting the community see how they are being represented by the individual CSM's on various topics) without repeatedly forcing the CSM to create full transcripts of NDA'd meeting only for me to then edit down to fit the confines of what information we will release.

This does not take into account the fact that it is standard operating practice for CSMs to pack the minutes full of borderline NDA material, plus at least one item that is obviously over the line. We know that you go for the bait every time and forget the rest. Twisted

CCP Dolan wrote:
The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.

IMHO, the minutes are CSMs report to the community about what was discussed at the summit, subject to the constraints of the NDA. I for one would always err on the side of completeness. While I am sensitive to CCP's desire not to have the minutes "spoil" surprises, such situations are not common and easily handled.

That said, I look forward to your suggestions -- as well as those of other interested community members -- as to how the minutes and their production process could be improved.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#31 - 2013-11-13 21:54:40 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
I feel that we can try and find a way to preserve what I see as the key value of the minutes (letting the community see how they are being represented by the individual CSM's on various topics) without repeatedly forcing the CSM to create full transcripts of NDA'd meeting only for me to then edit down to fit the confines of what information we will release.

This does not take into account the fact that it is standard operating practice for CSMs to pack the minutes full of borderline NDA material, plus at least one item that is obviously over the line. We know that you go for the bait every time and forget the rest. Twisted


Minutes exist because they are a useful tool: they've been a tool for transparency of government for centuries. There's no reason to try to optimise minutes out of the equation. What you need is CSM members who are happy transcribing hours of video. Masochists with good ears and high, reliable typing speeds.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#32 - 2013-11-13 22:06:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


Minutes exist because they are a useful tool: they've been a tool for transparency of government for centuries.

This is the point of those minutes.

So it's more important that they are correct, than that they are fast.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2013-11-13 22:57:20 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Heyo guys, I'm actually working on them as we speak. Unfortunately, right when the minutes started coming in from the CSM, we started having a few pressing matters in the community, the CSM, and the CPM. I am the lead on the CSM and the CPM and took a central role in the pressing matters to the community. Unfortunately, the time sensitive nature of all of these tasks meant that the minutes were pushed back.

Additionally, the minutes system is one of the oldest CSM systems, and just like I did with the stakeholder process and elections, it is next on my list of things to revamp. The minutes, as they have existed, are responsible for burning out more CSM's than any other activity, because they are a monotonous and lengthy task. I feel that we can try and find a way to preserve what I see as the key value of the minutes (letting the community see how they are being represented by the individual CSM's on various topics) without repeatedly forcing the CSM to create full transcripts of NDA'd meeting only for me to then edit down to fit the confines of what information we will release.

I think that in the past, people have viewed the minutes as some sort of delivery mechanism for hints about upcoming expansion/features. I pretty firmly disagree with that notion. The minutes are a system for review of the CSM, not preview of what CCP is doing.



So what your saying is I have a better chance in seeing the CIA's "Classified" reporting on the assassination of President Kennedy in 1963 than the minutes from a discussion on internet space pixels.........
Circumstantial Evidence
#34 - 2013-11-13 23:02:54 UTC
I hope the bureaucracy is not quite so bad, that CCP Dolan needs to schedule a meeting to discuss a process... for developing a new process.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#35 - 2013-11-14 01:04:59 UTC
I have removed some posts replying to an edited out part of a post.

The rules:
31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-11-14 07:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
CCP Dolan wrote:
The appropriate time for features to be reviewed/revealed is when the team actually posts them to features and ideas or in a dev blog.


Where they can more officially be forgotten about.



Anyone else remember the new Crucifier model from shown by CCP at Fanfest? Oh, I do.
Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#37 - 2013-11-14 11:26:56 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:

So far I see 3 reason why the minutes are not out yet:
CCP, CCP, CCP


I'll probably be discussing this endeavor as we near the winter summit,


I can see the winter summit - item 1 on the agenda - read the previous minute...... Small cough and CCP Dolan pipes up "sorry I've not finished them yet.."Oops
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#38 - 2013-11-14 12:36:23 UTC
Why doesn't the CSM use something like JIRA for tracking all of its issues/concerns? Properly used, you can tag, filter, prioritise, I think there's even voting plugins, it can make managing items outside of meetings a lot more asynchronous, preserves history of changes, and I'm sure there's some reporting tools that can make generating minutes a lot easier than doing them entirely manually.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#39 - 2013-11-14 13:33:41 UTC
Here's a suggestion...

Release the minutes in parts. Don't wait for the whole damned thing to be completed - we're not waiting on the continuing story in a novella, we're itching for current information while it's still current.

Take the sessions, do the ones that aren't about new NDA'able features first. Release them as you complete them. Work on the new feature sessions as you're ready to talk about the features.

If at the end someone finds it important to have a complete collection, then compile it all into a shiny PDF and publish it by all means.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#40 - 2013-11-14 14:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
By the way, concerning this whole minuting thingie, I want to introduce you a friend:

The stenographer: You speak it, she writes it

I *know* that CCP is fond of cheap and amateur solutions, but professional solutions do exist... P

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you