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New ship idea

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Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-11-13 11:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
OkaskiKali wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
shooting while cloaked gets a def neg 1 from me.


huh? why the edit, you actually make some good points if this idea, was to ever come to the game.


the edit was because i posted the wrong stuff in here, there is another forum thread with ship idea and i confused them Oops

EDIT: had some creative writing to fix
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#22 - 2013-11-13 11:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
OkaskiKali wrote:
Why is it a bad idea to add a mechanic to decloak ships?

I am thinking something along the lines of some sort of pulse that has an area of effect of perhaps 25km. When the pulse emits ships caught in the are of effect are capped out forcing the cloak offline.

You see what I did there?



Please check The List for arguments for and agains this much proposed idea.

Personally as annoying as I find people escaping, scouting or firing up cynos for hotdrops in cloaked ships I have no wish to add something to the game removes those options or that makes life easier for the perpetual gate campers of EvE.

Edit: While I love the idea of being able to engage while cloaked I can't support it as it is far to overpowered.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-11-13 11:58:15 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
OK it seems that you are incapable of thinking about a new type of game play that is not within eve's current offering. Yes the idea in todays eve is unbalanced, but you've acted like a drone and not actually debated anything. "It's so unbalanced" - but what could counter-act a ship that can fire cloaked.

This is debating and brainstorming and is perfectly acceptable in the section named Features & Ideas Discussion.


It's not a new type of gameplay actually. It's just two existing things that you're trying to combine while being the only person who cannot see what a bad idea it is.

Nobody wants to brainstorm with you because you should have stopped before you posted this and thought about it for yourself. Maybe you're just incapable of critical thinking without other people helping you.

And I did say why it's a bad idea. You just ignored it either on purpose or by mistake.
Don't forget that your own original argument was along the lines of "I like cloaky ships firing in movies, so eve should have it too".
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-11-13 12:06:57 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
OK it seems that you are incapable of thinking about a new type of game play that is not within eve's current offering. Yes the idea in todays eve is unbalanced, but you've acted like a drone and not actually debated anything. "It's so unbalanced" - but what could counter-act a ship that can fire cloaked.

This is debating and brainstorming and is perfectly acceptable in the section named Features & Ideas Discussion.


Then pls come back with a detailed proposition on the whole mechanic instaed of a random idea with no justification. Than we can discuss it (just look what devs do). Otherwise you are a troll that is wasting my time.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#25 - 2013-11-13 13:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
I like the idea, if it means new modules and a new way of playing the game then I don't see what the fuss is about. There are plenty of spin offs for this idea, unfortunately most people are stuck within the current limits of the game.

Once again we are stuck in the mentality that just becuase something is unbalanced it is bad for the game when infact when things are unbalanced that creates some of the most attractive game plays eve has to offer. It also brings about a level of thinking that unique to this MMORPG and people shouldn't lose that fact.

I don't see it coming into eve any time soon or at all with the current limitations including that of player acceptance. Any idea that brings new types of game play to eve and not just a reiteration of the tradtional gameplays I am all for.

People will debate and brainstorm with you but most will offer you nothing more than "this is a bad idea" just just becuase of the way they are negatively wired, any idea is bad unless it is something they have thought of.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-11-13 13:31:48 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Radhe Amatin wrote:
bad for two reasons:

1. shooting while cloaked is totally overpowered for some obvious reason like no one can shot back.
2. In order to make this mechanic work (if by some idiotic reason CCP decides to put something like this in game ) there will have to be a new mechanic that will allow decloaking ships besides the 2500 m proximity and that will be bad because it will ruin the all ready existing cloaked ships in game that uses cloak as a defense and surprise attack.





Quote:
2. In order to make this mechanic work (if by some idiotic reason CCP decides to put something like this in game ) there will have to be a new mechanic that will allow decloaking ships besides the 2500 m proximity and that will be bad because it will ruin the all ready existing cloaked ships in game that uses cloak as a defense and surprise attack.


Why is it a bad idea to add a mechanic to decloak ships?

I am thinking something along the lines of some sort of pulse that has an area of effect of perhaps 25km. When the pulse emits ships caught in the are of effect are capped out forcing the cloak offline.

You see what I did there?


first of all such a mechanic will render cloaked ships useless.....cov ops, bomber recons t3 when they use the covert cloak they trade off dps speed and tank for the ability to use them and the cloak is their main defense. Adding a mechanic that decloaks everything in 25 km will make passing throu gate camps impossible.Will render bombing runs on the gates on drag bubble and of any different spots useless if u can just click and decloak all bombers.
Second of all putting new game mechanics that will brake another game mechanic just for the sake of fighting cloaked is insane at best and no matter how many arguments u can bring to the table its still something that will be over powered and game braking .
I know its the ideas discussion section of the forum but posting game braking ideas just for the sake of posting anything its not best way to spend your time on the forum.
AnUnskilled Pilot
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-11-13 13:36:16 UTC
I agree - bad idea. It hasn't worked or been done in any other game. Because it's overpowered. Any sort of mechanic that disables your ability to attack your target is overpowered and even by adding in things you can do. Its still overpowered, even if you manage to decloak them with the thing you have to do. Only then does the fight start
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#28 - 2013-11-13 13:36:26 UTC
Radhe Amatin wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
Radhe Amatin wrote:
bad for two reasons:

1. shooting while cloaked is totally overpowered for some obvious reason like no one can shot back.
2. In order to make this mechanic work (if by some idiotic reason CCP decides to put something like this in game ) there will have to be a new mechanic that will allow decloaking ships besides the 2500 m proximity and that will be bad because it will ruin the all ready existing cloaked ships in game that uses cloak as a defense and surprise attack.





Quote:
2. In order to make this mechanic work (if by some idiotic reason CCP decides to put something like this in game ) there will have to be a new mechanic that will allow decloaking ships besides the 2500 m proximity and that will be bad because it will ruin the all ready existing cloaked ships in game that uses cloak as a defense and surprise attack.


Why is it a bad idea to add a mechanic to decloak ships?

I am thinking something along the lines of some sort of pulse that has an area of effect of perhaps 25km. When the pulse emits ships caught in the are of effect are capped out forcing the cloak offline.

You see what I did there?


first of all such a mechanic will render cloaked ships useless.....cov ops, bomber recons t3 when they use the covert cloak they trade off dps speed and tank for the ability to use them and the cloak is their main defense. Adding a mechanic that decloaks everything in 25 km will make passing throu gate camps impossible.Will render bombing runs on the gates on drag bubble and of any different spots useless if u can just click and decloak all bombers.
Second of all putting new game mechanics that will brake another game mechanic just for the sake of fighting cloaked is insane at best and no matter how many arguments u can bring to the table its still something that will be over powered and game braking .
I know its the ideas discussion section of the forum but posting game braking ideas just for the sake of posting anything its not best way to spend your time on the forum.


Point proven with this response, people are so ingrained that "its bound to break the game" when in fact If we don't want to break what is working well it isn't rocket science that limitations can be used. It's not like CCP don't know how to limit....I mean rebalance.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#29 - 2013-11-13 13:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
AnUnskilled Pilot wrote:
I agree - bad idea. It hasn't worked or been done in any other game. Because it's overpowered. Any sort of mechanic that disables your ability to attack your target is overpowered and even by adding in things you can do. Its still overpowered, even if you manage to decloak them with the thing you have to do. Only then does the fight start


And that is different to a falcon sat jamming you or an arazu sensor dampening you or a pilgrim being under your optimal with tracking disrupters.

Nothing in eve should be fair that is why I play, if it got anymore furry I'd hang up the plexes and go play another game.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-11-13 16:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Doc J wrote:
And that is different to a falcon sat jamming you or an arazu sensor dampening you or a pilgrim being under your optimal with tracking disrupters.

It's different because all of those are easily countered by either having a buddy or two with you who can shoot the EWAR ship or by: fitting ECCM or using drones/FOFs against the Falcon, using drones/FOFs against the Arazu, using drones/missiles against the Pilgrim.

With a ship that can fire while cloaked none of these are a viable option. You just die because neither you nor the rest of your gang can fight back.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#31 - 2013-11-13 16:19:42 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Ships that can shoot whilst cloaked.

Obviously certain class of modules would not be available to be fit to prevent it from being to overpowering.

Seems to work well in the movies, I personally love cloaky firing ships. Not sure if here is a place for them in eve but I would suggest that emergent gaming styles is what makes eve so great so before you flame the idea think about the sort of game play that can be created.



You know who doesn't love them? everyone else.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#32 - 2013-11-13 17:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
To be honest, the ability to shoot while cloaked is extremely, extremely potent.

Rather than flame your topic (which it rightfully deserves), I'll try to think outside the box and balance your idea:

If a ship fires while cloaked, it cannot move for 2 minutes (Even if it is decloaked). Furthermore, it's firing range is limited (say 20 km's attack range). Finally, it should have the EHP of a bomber, the agility of a carrier, and the cost of a BS.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#33 - 2013-11-15 18:04:34 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Doc J wrote:
And that is different to a falcon sat jamming you or an arazu sensor dampening you or a pilgrim being under your optimal with tracking disrupters.

It's different because all of those are easily countered by either having a buddy or two with you who can shoot the EWAR ship or by: fitting ECCM or using drones/FOFs against the Falcon, using drones/FOFs against the Arazu, using drones/missiles against the Pilgrim.

With a ship that can fire while cloaked none of these are a viable option. You just die because neither you nor the rest of your gang can fight back.


So correct me if I am wrong, you counter a ship that you can't shoot by having backup, or installing specific modules that counter the main role of the force recon ships......

I'm pretty sure that is what the OP was getting at, with the right attributes and options to counter I do not see the issue here.

Just to make you aware, I just had to endure a 4 minute combat without firing a single shot. Not being able to hit a jamming falcon 55km away isn't fair but that is what is good about eve. If you are going to argue by saying "there are things we can do to counter" establish what the difference with this idea is and things that already happen in game in another manner and ask yourself is this idea all that different?

Any cloaking firing ship could bring about homing missiles that are activated when your ship is locked by a cloaked ship. I'm just saying that this idea isn't dead in the water like a lot of you suggest. With the right types of attributes and counters this could make for some good game play.
Jason Itiner
Harmless People
#34 - 2013-11-15 20:08:34 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Ships that can shoot whilst cloaked.

Obviously certain class of modules would not be available to be fit to prevent it from being to overpowering.

Seems to work well in the movies, I personally love cloaky firing ships. Not sure if here is a place for them in eve but I would suggest that emergent gaming styles is what makes eve so great so before you flame the idea think about the sort of game play that can be created.


A class that can destroy you with no way whatsoever to be countered. Sounds fun...

The only modules I would allow to have cloaked activation would be EWAR modules, or even only the ECM Burst: the burst doesn't depend on a target lock (and active sensor sweeps that can be traced back) or targeted effects, so a ship wouldn't betray its position unambiguously by triggering it.
David Kir
Errantry Armaments
#35 - 2013-11-15 21:26:17 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
OK it seems that you are incapable of thinking about a new type of game play that is not within eve's current offering. Yes the idea in todays eve is unbalanced, but you've acted like a drone and not actually debated anything. "It's so unbalanced" - but what could counter-act a ship that can fire cloaked.

This is debating and brainstorming and is perfectly acceptable in the section named Features & Ideas Discussion.


You don't propose a totally unbalanced ships class, then come up with a hard counter that penalizes all other cloak applications.
That's bad, bad game design.

And you've already been told the reasons.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#36 - 2013-11-15 22:08:44 UTC
Right, first of, the OP has the right to post an idea to discuss and has the right to expect a civil and healthy discussion as a result. You don't have to agree, but post your arguments in a civil manner please. This goes both ways by the way.

Rule breaking posts and those quoting them removed.

The rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#37 - 2013-11-18 11:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: OkaskiKali
David Kir wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
OK it seems that you are incapable of thinking about a new type of game play that is not within eve's current offering. Yes the idea in todays eve is unbalanced, but you've acted like a drone and not actually debated anything. "It's so unbalanced" - but what could counter-act a ship that can fire cloaked.

This is debating and brainstorming and is perfectly acceptable in the section named Features & Ideas Discussion.


You don't propose a totally unbalanced ships class, then come up with a hard counter that penalizes all other cloak applications.
That's bad, bad game design.

And you've already been told the reasons.


HUH?

Could have sworn a counter to MWD-ing ships was a belated release of the warp scramble?

Quote:
a hard counter that penalizes all other cloak applications.


I'm not sure I suggested creating counters that neutralised all cloak applications. I would even suggest that a certain class of ship could be created that hunted this cloaking combat ship, but again, within the current mind set of the community, one which only see's what is in the game and not a vision of how eve could evolve to create new emergent gaming styles this idea will continue to attract the forum spiders.
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