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Tier 3 BCs Nerfed to **** pre-release

Author
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#41 - 2011-11-04 14:23:44 UTC
Problem with these tier 3 cruisers is that their implementation does not really seem to fit their design goals.

I understood that the intent in designing these BCs was to provide subcaptial fleets with a punch which could at least give pause to supercaps, so that capital fleets would at least be more vulnerable with a subcap support fleet.


As a concept that sounds good.


However, implementation is a bit iffy - we are getting some cheap DPS platforms yes, but which fit more the bill of "supergankers" than anything else.

Why not give the Tier 3 BCs XL guns - that would make them useless against just about anything that's moving and is smaller than a moon but they would at least have an opportunity to become a thorn on the side of supercaps.

But then, I probably missed something in a devblog or one of the myriad of discussions going on around here Pirate
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2011-11-04 16:26:39 UTC
if they will be useless ill start flow the forums with **** until my accounts expire,join me
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-11-04 17:02:22 UTC
Cyniac wrote:
Problem with these tier 3 cruisers is that their implementation does not really seem to fit their design goals.

I understood that the intent in designing these BCs was to provide subcaptial fleets with a punch which could at least give pause to supercaps, so that capital fleets would at least be more vulnerable with a subcap support fleet.


As a concept that sounds good.


However, implementation is a bit iffy - we are getting some cheap DPS platforms yes, but which fit more the bill of "supergankers" than anything else.

Why not give the Tier 3 BCs XL guns - that would make them useless against just about anything that's moving and is smaller than a moon but they would at least have an opportunity to become a thorn on the side of supercaps.

But then, I probably missed something in a devblog or one of the myriad of discussions going on around here Pirate


if indeed the primary design goal was to fight caps then i have a very hard time understanding why any of them had tracking bonuses in the first place.

I should buy an Ishtar.

cyka776
#44 - 2011-11-04 17:19:07 UTC
im raging about these possible changes that completely ruin a playstyle that i had briefly considered adopting in some vague future scenario
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-11-04 17:27:04 UTC
Dark Pangolin wrote:
"Still, nerfing these ships was the right thing to do. As I've said already, they were too scary in their initial form. "

Forgot to include that part in the quote. We'll see when they actually get released.

I do agree though that all the renderings and models indicate that 3rd Tier BCs are intended to only field 4 guns...and it looks like 4 of the "smaller" Large guns...


Sisi models say you're wrong.
Cunane Jeran
#46 - 2011-11-04 17:27:05 UTC
I was just flying the Talos on Sisi. Its pretty darn strong in both PvE and PvP, and as it stands I'd say its pretty darn close to being balanced.

PvP In all honesty added a web bonus to it would make it OP as hell, the tracking is godly and using neutrons the range is pretty darn good, its pretty much impossible to kite and a normal web was more than enough to shred whatever I was fighting in it.

PvE wise, the lack of dronebay is what is keeping it in line, 8x 350mm and you can kill elite frigs at 30km but its a struggle and you have to watch your speed.



Omnium Domitor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-11-04 19:22:56 UTC
Naga:


I know it's still WIP, but the removal of explosion velocity/radius bonus on torps is a big letdown.

Why do we even want large hybrid optimal ranged bonus on Naga, when Rokh already has that and nobody uses it?

Either focus on being a complete missile boat or hybrid turret boat, not a poor mixture of both.
Zachis
TBC
#48 - 2011-11-04 20:25:31 UTC
The split bonuses are silly. So is the fact that both Gallente and Caldari share hybrid weapons as a primary weapon system. Make the Gallente the Hybrid race (blasters and rails) and Caldari the Missile race. Bonus the ships accordingly.
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#49 - 2011-11-04 20:36:04 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
Dark Pangolin wrote:
"Still, nerfing these ships was the right thing to do. As I've said already, they were too scary in their initial form. "

Forgot to include that part in the quote. We'll see when they actually get released.

I do agree though that all the renderings and models indicate that 3rd Tier BCs are intended to only field 4 guns...and it looks like 4 of the "smaller" Large guns...


Sisi models say you're wrong.


SiSi models were not out when i wrote that post and if you keep reading you'll see I already called shenanigans when the Naga model was released :)...Read the whole thread people ALL OF IT! I DEMAND IT! :) Can't wait to get home and play on SiSi...Laz0r Naga here I come!
Knoppaz
distress signals
#50 - 2011-11-04 21:21:13 UTC
Zachis wrote:
The split bonuses are silly. So is the fact that both Gallente and Caldari share hybrid weapons as a primary weapon system. Make the Gallente the Hybrid race (blasters and rails) and Caldari the Missile race. Bonus the ships accordingly.


..that should have been done long ago.

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-11-05 22:49:47 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:
Zachis wrote:
The split bonuses are silly. So is the fact that both Gallente and Caldari share hybrid weapons as a primary weapon system. Make the Gallente the Hybrid race (blasters and rails) and Caldari the Missile race. Bonus the ships accordingly.


..that should have been done long ago.

no

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-11-05 22:57:40 UTC
DOLFEEEN!

RAAAAIL!
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-11-06 00:43:29 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Awesome, so the Naga is going from "potentially useful but overshadowed" to "******* worthless".

Seems Caldari aren't supposed to fly anything but the Falcon and Drake.


Tengu.



Those can be killed by Tornado. 100% granted and easy has cake.
Lairne Tekitsu
Candy Cabal
Surrounded by Wormholes
#54 - 2011-11-06 01:33:54 UTC
Zachis wrote:
The split bonuses are silly. So is the fact that both Gallente and Caldari share hybrid weapons as a primary weapon system. Make the Gallente the Hybrid race (blasters and rails) and Caldari the Missile race. Bonus the ships accordingly.


I've always thought that the point was that Caldari get missiles and railguns and Gallente get blasters and drones.


Anyway, guys, you should stop bawling about them until the ships are actually finalized. Just because something has been changed in development doesn't mean it's permanent.

In Half-Life 2, the Borealis/Hyperborea went from being a ship you stopped off on in the middle of the ocean to a ship stuck in ice that you need to retrieve something from. That change wasn't kept; the ship never even made it into the final game. Similarly, these BCs can still change before they're released. After all, they're been put on the testing server; the entire point of which is to test them and see if they need to be changed.

Of course, you should still point out, after flying them, if they're underpowered or not. Just don't do it by raging hard and screaming at CCP about how badly they suck before you've ever even flown them.
Noisrevbus
#55 - 2011-11-06 03:53:03 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Naga? Split weapon bonus trolololo. Ranking: 2/10
Oracle? Crappy cap bonus which is already a role bonus. HAH. However, S C O R C H. 5/10
Talos? LOL NO WEB BONUS. LOL NO DRONEBAY. Expect 5% more DPS than the Tornado with 10% of the range. 4/10
Tornado? Hey look, it's Minmatar. MAKE IT THE GREATEST OF ALL THE SHIPS. MINMATAR IS WINMATAR. RABBLE RABBLE. 9/10

Yes, I'm mad. Sad


Hehe, while pretty funny, DarkAegix comment also touches something important.

I ran the "leaked" data just like every other person and quickly saw that the stats were completely outrageous. Perhaps not at first look when you only take certain streamlined ships in their ideal roles and compare how they would fare against each other (insert Drake and Abaddon references). There is also an initial appeal in breathing some life into mobile-kiting tactics (roaming PvP, kiting snipers etc.) that alot of people declare alot of love for. Me included. Once you looked past the obvious and shallow though, you could see that long-term these ships, as they were, would create a stream of problems.

I ran initial drafts on the Oracle which would hit with scorched pulse up to 92+X in a typical sniping fit based around old beam Zealots. The leaks put the new tier three BC very close to navy-faction cruisers in terms of base hp, resistance spread and slot allocation. So, in their element (in regard to the Oracle and Naga) they would be quite similar to old school sniping HAC in terms of a 20k ehp tank ontop of a 1700m/s speed, while hitting similar ranges. The problem appear when you realize they are doing twice the damage with double the tracking ontop of that (600dps with 0.5r in comparison to 300dps ontop of 0.2r, or thereabout). You ended up with a ship that is essentially free (or around one tenth of the price) being twice as good in that role.

If you start looking at the HACs you'd completely obsolete both (the already quite underwhelming) Caldari HACs, you'd take from the Muninn the only thing it does well, you'd strip the Zealot of half it's role and so on. The same goes for the short-range oriented new ships in regard to the Sacriledge, Deimos and to some degree the Vagabond. Then you will have the ripple effects of that in ships that are not quite as good, but which some people may use as budget alternatives, as these new ships are budget alternatives in themselves; the entire Caldari line once again, as it's based around range and (range is limited), from Harpy to Ferox to Rokh, through Caracal and Raven. Similarily the Thorax, Brutix, Cane, the recently improved kiting minmatar BS and further on.

Tier two BC are already a nuisance, establishing some kind of baseline and pushing other ships towards nische (yet somehow never managing to excel and dominate a true role of their own). These new ships as they were, had that specialized touch and would jab at all those ships in their specific ideals. Doing what they do, not only almost as well or even slightly better - but several times as good.

The last bit how this ties in is DarkAegix comment, because when they decided to neuter this class of ships - their internal balance started shining through. Several of these ships were too strong in specific nische, but they were also very limited to that role and when you yank that entire role from them the ones who are not as strong among them quickly become meager while the one in it's element is left to dominate the entire class. That too, has also been mentioned earlier in this thread.

Out of the ashes, into the fire - it ain't easy being a dev Big smile.
Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2011-11-06 04:21:00 UTC
A lot of fleets nowadays are based around alpha, I feel like this is a pretty awesome way to expand on that. Also supercap hunting just got a lot more fun. These ships are meant to have a certain role and play that role, not be super OMG RAEP BOATS. They aren't supposed to go toe to toe with HAC's and BS's.
"... They were similar in size and cost to a battleship, but while they typically used the same large-calibre main armament as a battleship, battlecruisers sacrificed armour protection in exchange for speed..."

[ASK] Me about drive by thread shitting!

ner00n
MIIA Best Snake
#57 - 2011-11-06 11:53:47 UTC
Posted: 2011.11.06 00:43

Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Awesome, so the Naga is going from "potentially useful but overshadowed" to "******* worthless".

Seems Caldari aren't supposed to fly anything but the Falcon and Drake.


Tengu.



Those can be killed by Tornado. 100% granted and easy has cake.




if your losing a tengu to a tornado your fitting sucks and you should quit pvp and go back to mining
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#58 - 2011-11-06 14:17:13 UTC
Omnium Domitor wrote:
Naga:


I know it's still WIP, but the removal of explosion velocity/radius bonus on torps is a big letdown.

Why do we even want large hybrid optimal ranged bonus on Naga, when Rokh already has that and nobody uses it?

Either focus on being a complete missile boat or hybrid turret boat, not a poor mixture of both.


A straight 10% DPS boost, a 12% PG requirement reduction and -30% cap use are changes that address some of the biggest problems with the Rokh. I think we'll probably be seeing more of them in the future.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-11-06 14:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
ner00n wrote:
Posted: 2011.11.06 00:43

Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Awesome, so the Naga is going from "potentially useful but overshadowed" to "******* worthless".

Seems Caldari aren't supposed to fly anything but the Falcon and Drake.


Tengu.



Those can be killed by Tornado. 100% granted and easy has cake.




if your losing a tengu to a tornado your fitting sucks and you should quit pvp and go back to mining


Didn't said I lost it, but since you can't understand my poor level of English let me try to make it simple for you:

Me: orbits Tornado at +/- 80km

Me: hits F1

Me: uses 100AB MN fit and orbits the Tornado for 1450m/s

Tornado: puts perfect and wrecking shots at this distance with no TP's on a 180m radius ship flying with transversal for 1450m/s

Hope you can read it now (can't hope you understand thou)
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2011-11-06 14:32:15 UTC
The tornado isn't too bad, in all honesty.

Can't speak for the other three, though. Big smile