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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1421 - 2013-11-14 10:59:38 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
We were not attakcign your poitn. Jsut the data you were usign to defend it, because other people use that same data to make stupid claims ( as some others made same mistake of usign the dps and believing in 50 secodns time to make other assertions)



certainly, and it was valid to do so. I've got no issues with people being on the other side of an arguement as long as they do their fact checking and i'm rather happy that people called me out so i could correct my facts ^^

all told, if anything, the correction lends itself more towards the idea of enlarging the RLML's clip size in the burst varient by a missile or two, raised up to perhaps 20 missiles as opposed to 18 which would solve a lot of the dps complaints and infact shift the "firing time" back towards the 50 second mark.


the mechanic is awesome, its all about the fine tuning.



That is exactly what I have been defending sicne start. The long time is not as problematic as the size of the clip. If the clip was enlarged by 2 units you get much broader spectrum of engagement. THe long reloas is an aspect of gameplay, the short number of charges is a hard restriction, not a gameplay aspect by itself..

And before nayone spits crap, yes I ran the numbers on several common fits for EHP and it allows you to kill a few more T2 frigates and ensures you have damage to kill 2 T1 frigates even if well fit. With 18 charges the number of scenarios htat you do not kill a target increases a lot on my listing (and I have made 21 scenarios here at my spreadsheets)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1422 - 2013-11-14 11:08:52 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

the concern about having teribly difficultly adjusting missile type to your targets has, after all, been anknowledged by CCP rise and with luck we should see a solution to this problem...

With LUCK you say... do you know when? No, you can't know when. Do they know when? No, no one knows when but somehow you and others like you fail to see a problem there!? To you it's perfectly okay that missile users end up with half-broken mechanic, waiting for weeks, months or longer (if UNLUCKY) to get something functional.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1423 - 2013-11-14 11:10:12 UTC
Why is there no response to the idea of keeping the rapid launchers as they are with minor nerfs (5% damage reduction and 15% PWG increase for instance) and adding these new weapon systems to the roster separately? That seems like a really good compromise and would actually add choices to the game instead of taking them away.
Evander1992
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1424 - 2013-11-14 11:23:47 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


That is exactly what I have been defending sicne start. The long time is not as problematic as the size of the clip. If the clip was enlarged by 2 units you get much broader spectrum of engagement. THe long reloas is an aspect of gameplay, the short number of charges is a hard restriction, not a gameplay aspect by itself..

And before nayone spits crap, yes I ran the numbers on several common fits for EHP and it allows you to kill a few more T2 frigates and ensures you have damage to kill 2 T1 frigates even if well fit. With 18 charges the number of scenarios htat you do not kill a target increases a lot on my listing (and I have made 21 scenarios here at my spreadsheets)



What about adding a 5 second timer to switch missile types, in addition to the +2 clip increase? Obviously, changing missile type wouldn't allow the player to refill the clip, but only to switch between missiles mantaining the same number of charges previously loaded

That way, you end up with a good dps during the burst time and can do the right damage type, in addition to the already decent damage application vs small targets. That would create a more versatile weapon system and compensate for the 40 seconds downtime.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#1425 - 2013-11-14 11:25:11 UTC
Evander1992 wrote:


What about adding a 5 second timer to switch missile types, in addition to the +2 clip increase? Obviously, changing missile type wouldn't allow the player to refill the clip, but only to switch between missiles mantaining the same number of charges previously loaded

That way, you end up with a good dps during the burst time and can do the right damage type, in addition to the already decent damage application vs small targets. That would create a more versatile weapon system and compensate for the 40 seconds downtime.


not a terrible idea

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
the jury
SPANK THE MONKEY
#1426 - 2013-11-14 11:33:00 UTC
guys everyone knows that ccp are a law to themselves Shocked doesn't matter what you write . only thing they understand is profit margins. you can ***** and complain all you want if they want it in game its going in. personally I think messing around with old weapon systems so a new weapon system doesn't get the OP badge on it is lame . med guns got a buff not so long ago and missiles systems get nerfed. some might say that it's not a nerf but going by the way most pilots use the RLML it's a nerf . you can change up game play by other means . what's stopping you from next patch coming out with the I know how to make gang warfare fights more tense lets give small guns and 40 second reload time but up their dps and give them smaller magazines Big smile
Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1427 - 2013-11-14 11:39:50 UTC
The idea of 40s reload is terrible as long as there no viable option for missile users.
Kara Trix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1428 - 2013-11-14 12:29:09 UTC
I think everyone is only thinking PVP and very short fights.

Log on to SISI as I did and build your RLML ship of choice and TRY TO PVE with it.

It's a complete Joke... 40 second reload and 18 shots is a such a slam in the face to PVE players.

If you mission, there are dozens of frigs to kill and these missiles are now useless due to reload times.

For PVP, hope you don't expect a fight lasting longer than 18 shots, because your opponent is going to completely heal while your missiles reload.

The only people liking this are the players who don't use missiles.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1429 - 2013-11-14 12:31:24 UTC
Kara Trix wrote:
I think everyone is only thinking PVP and very short fights.

Log on to SISI as I did and build your RLML ship of choice and TRY TO PVE with it.

It's a complete Joke... 40 second reload and 18 shots is a such a slam in the face to PVE players.

If you mission, there are dozens of frigs to kill and these missiles are now useless due to reload times.

For PVP, hope you don't expect a fight lasting longer than 18 shots, because your opponent is going to completely heal while your missiles reload.

The only people liking this are the players who don't use missiles.



Not true. People that expect to use moderately to very large gangs will like it. 50 tengus wil be able to dish impressive damage with great application .

The problems resides in solo and very small gangs where you were the only dps with the other guy being tackle or ewar.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jove Death
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1430 - 2013-11-14 12:36:37 UTC
I heard a while back in a vid somebody mentioning they dont like fighting drakes because they pretty much
can hit anything in the park and to go against one in a talos would be a bad idea.

It seems your trying to take the edge of cal ships in order for other ship to be able to whack them whilst there reloading.


So lets say we did take a talos and a drake and the drake was fitted with a new type of rapid launch missile.

Talos would hit the mwd and play around at 2k per second and wait for the drake to reload and if the talos is blaster fit it will just come along its broadside and blast the crap out of it

The drake pilot may aswell say hi im reloading come kill me as im not interested in ejecting.

Even in a fleet this wouldnt work as Fc's will be saying right half you lot fire then the next lot of you fire whilst the first lot is reloading.

If your going to go ahead with it the reload should only be 20 seconds.

Also if your basing this on quick hit squad ie get in fire, warp away and reload whilst in warp this too wont work as the warp mechanics will change and unless your in a 40 second warp inties will blast the crap out of you when you drop warp.

the idea it will work solo or in a fleet is pretty mindless with a 40s timer tbh and a waste of effort and time put in.


Quoting "you will die" in EvE is fail Chars dont die in EvE. Unless you have a heart attack eek.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1431 - 2013-11-14 12:40:36 UTC
Kara Trix wrote:
I think everyone is only thinking PVP and very short fights.

Not everyone no, read older posts Smile
Kara Trix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1432 - 2013-11-14 12:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Trix
Taoist Dragon wrote:


Meh indicidual weapons systems upt medium spec don't take that long in reality with a decently foccussed skill plan etc.

And once again another perfectly formed argument based on facts and a touch of whine at all here. Shocked



You absolutely don't get it, since you most likely have played this game a very long time. I would also guess RLML are not your primary weapon. based on your killboard stats... you fly Amarr and Mini.

When CCP completely changes the use of a weapon, it deeply effects a new players skill plan.

It takes a month of focused skilling to shoot RLML effectively..... now it's worthless, since the weapon is useless, in terms of it's original multi-purpose use on Cruiser hulls. It's only a PVP weapon now and it's an extremely weak solo one at that.

A month is FOREVER for a new player.
Kara Trix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1433 - 2013-11-14 13:02:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Not true. People that expect to use moderately to very large gangs will like it. 50 tengus wil be able to dish impressive damage with great application .

The problems resides in solo and very small gangs where you were the only dps with the other guy being tackle or ewar.



You said it...

They removed this weapon from the game. No one will use them now because there are so many better options after this nerf.

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1434 - 2013-11-14 13:03:02 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Not true. People that expect to use moderately to very large gangs will like it. 50 tengus wil be able to dish impressive damage with great application .

The problems resides in solo and very small gangs where you were the only dps with the other guy being tackle or ewar.

Hopefully soon(TM) we'll be able to see more cool stuff: Bringing Solo Back == EPISODE XY (November 19) *Rubicon Episode*
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1435 - 2013-11-14 13:05:44 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
very well. commense flipping of numbers!

18 launches at 1008 damage each = 18144 damage.

in the interest of not making the seconds rounded, being so important, we should figure out how long these launchers will actually fire for.

we know these new launchers are going to have a "base" rate of fire of 6.24s before you apply mods and skills.

currently the launchers have a base RoF of 9.6 so taking the proportion of this value and comparing it with the new launchers and then working things out against the 3.7 RoF with BCU's and RoF bonuses on caracal gives us...

18 launches with 2.405 intervals gives us 43.29 seconds of FIRE ZE MISSILES!

so, accordingly we'll be doing 18144 damage in 43.29 seconds and that stays constant for the 40 second reload.

so, how many more launches would current LML's get in the same time frame?

well we're talking 83.29 seconds in total so, at 3.7 seconds duration we will get...

83.29/3.7 = 22.5

which, at the same damage value of 1008 for 4 launches gives us a total of 22690 damage over the same timeframe.

18144/22690 = 0.79

well dang, happily I'll tip my head over to a 20% damage decrease over the relevent timeframe. funkeh.

so accordingly I pass my appologies over my mismatched numbers. does this steer me clear of my opinions on this matter however? not really, burst DPS still has significant advantages AND disadvantages over the prolonged dps of the traditional format.

I will however concede that there has very well been a bit of an overall long term dps nerf, but the raw DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA! of the 44 seconds, in my mind, more than compensates for this loss.

the concern about having teribly difficultly adjusting missile type to your targets has, after all, been anknowledged by CCP rise and with luck we should see a solution to this problem, however the intrinsic advantage of dealing significant quantities of damage to your targets in such spectacularly short periods of time SHOULD NOT BE DISCOUNTED.

so, as i said i'm sorry for ballocksed numberage in my previous post and this post should serve as testimant for my willingness to doublecheck my facts ^^

Wrong again 2.405 it's not the correct new rof if you fail at math don't post
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1436 - 2013-11-14 13:18:43 UTC
Kara Trix wrote:

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.

Err, not really. HAM is a short range weapon with bad damage application to anything smaller than a battlecruiser. Tengu blobs with SRLML could be... well, not something you would like to see on the other side.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1437 - 2013-11-14 13:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Kara Trix wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Not true. People that expect to use moderately to very large gangs will like it. 50 tengus wil be able to dish impressive damage with great application .

The problems resides in solo and very small gangs where you were the only dps with the other guy being tackle or ewar.



You said it...

They removed this weapon from the game. No one will use them now because there are so many better options after this nerf.

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.



No one will use it solo anymore. But there is always achance it become some sort of doctrine for some weird scenario.

Also 50 man tengu fleets are not uncommon in 0.0 warfare (as in if it was interestign they would surely do it).

T3 are nOT expensive for well stablished 0.0 groups.

And to the ones that reallyw ant to do the math. Remember.. reload cycle start after the 18 charges are over +1 fire cycle, when the 19th is attempted to be shot. And after it finishes reloading you loose 1 more second for weapon to reactivate.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1438 - 2013-11-14 13:27:37 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Kara Trix wrote:

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.

Err, not really. HAM is a short range weapon with bad damage application to anything smaller than a battlecruiser. Tengu blobs with SRLML could be... well, not something you would like to see on the other side.



What? HAM's hit a cruiser at full speed for around 70% damage, although it goes down to about 50% with a overheated mwd.

That is out of web range, compare that to other medium close range weapons....

With a web on your opponent you apply ALL your damage.. all of it... Even if its an ABing attack cruiser you still get around 75% dps within web range.



HAM's have their flaws but saying that they can't apply damage to cruisers is just plain wrong.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1439 - 2013-11-14 13:36:39 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Kara Trix wrote:

PS... No Tengu pilot will fit these for solo work and keep them as a primary weapon, and I don't know what game you're playing, but where is this 50 Tengu fleet? If they did exist, why in the world would they fit these piles when they can just fit HAMS and own.

Err, not really. HAM is a short range weapon with bad damage application to anything smaller than a battlecruiser. Tengu blobs with SRLML could be... well, not something you would like to see on the other side.



What? HAM's hit a cruiser at full speed for around 70% damage, although it goes down to about 50% with a overheated mwd.

That is out of web range, compare that to other medium close range weapons....

With a web on your opponent you apply ALL your damage.. all of it... Even if its an ABing attack cruiser you still get around 75% dps within web range.



HAM's have their flaws but saying that they can't apply damage to cruisers is just plain wrong.



50% is what most call rather bad damage application.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1440 - 2013-11-14 13:53:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

What? HAM's hit a cruiser at full speed for around 70% damage, although it goes down to about 50% with a overheated mwd.

Ye ye and for some cruisers even below that, which is bad m'kay?

Quote:

HAM's have their flaws but saying that they can't apply damage to cruisers is just plain wrong.

Who said they can't?