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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#101 - 2013-11-08 14:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Ok:

Take the swarm ammo idea I have further up in this thread, and instead of loading the swarm ammo into RLMs, you load it into HMLs.

HMLs can now dual mode as either long range, low dps ships, but can reload to short range high burst damage, high application ammo. Increase the reload time to 60s.

HMLs now have role "1/2 dps ships until tackle shows up, then swap to anti tackle". This is different from the RLM role of being hilariously low dps against larger targets. Gangs could then either use RLM ships for anti tackle, or HML ships for slightly less anti tackle, but higher dps when shooting primaries. You get choices in gang composition, which is good. For rapid heavy launchers, im not really sure what to do, since cruises hit frigates just as well as heavy missiles (which is to say, very badly)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-11-08 14:43:50 UTC
I have a different idea.


How about instead of calling them rapids cause they fire off a bunch of missiles quickly,
instead,

Completely remove reloading from rapid launchers.


adjust their RoF and whatever else so that they're balanced.

But instead of worrying about reloading, the advantage that these launchers would have is that they never reload, unless you're swapping damage types.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2013-11-08 14:45:01 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Ok:

Take the swarm ammo idea I have further up in this thread, and instead of loading the swarm ammo into RLMs, you load it into HMLs.

HMLs can now dual mode as either long range, low dps ships, but can reload to short range high burst damage, high application ammo. Increase the reload time to 60s.

HMLs now have role "1/2 dps ships until tackle shows up, then swap to anti tackle". This is different from the RLM role of being hilariously low dps against larger targets. Gangs could then either use RLM ships for anti tackle, or HML ships for slightly less anti tackle, but higher dps when shooting primaries. You get choices in gang composition, which is good. For rapid heavy launchers, im not really sure what to do, since cruises hit frigates just as well as heavy missiles (which is to say, very badly)



That would be interesting. Also HML are nwo weak enough that their fittings could be reduced a tiny bit. Combine both and we might have something.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#104 - 2013-11-08 14:47:31 UTC
40 seconds seems like madness tbh, especially with the tiny amount of missiles that the rapid lights will be able to hold. You could use a squad fitting rapid heavies as a hit and run kind of thing - but battleships aren't exactly nippy now are they.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."

BAJRAN BALI
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#105 - 2013-11-08 14:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BAJRAN BALI
I think the reload time is a bit long, but I agree the reload needs to be upped. Keep in mind a lot of players use rapid launchers on t2 hulls. If your going to do this is suggest you look at adding a reload time bonus of some sort to the t2 hulls or something of that nature that are meant to use missile. I mean don't give the bonus to a t2 hull that has 1 - 2 missile slots.

I think the reload time should be more around the 20 sec mark. In every engagement the pilot using the rapid missile will most likely be overloading them adding even more DPS, but putting the even closer to the heart stopping 40 sec reload time. 40 sec is way too much. With an ASB I see why you need the super long reload time, but in doing this to a ships damage projection your rendering it useless for 40 sec. It's almost like the guy they'll be fighting has a falcon with them during the 1st reload.

Summary: Reload is too long, reconsider around 20-25 sec mark. 40 sec too long to cripple a ship's damage.

Edit: Another thing to keep in mind. Missiles only do 1 type of damage. You may deter fights with this new reload rather than encourage them. Pilots looking to pick a fight want the right ammo. Taking a full 40 sec to reload may mean they miss out or choose not to engage.

YouTube: kds119 Twitter: @realkds119 Blog: derptw.blogspot.com

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#106 - 2013-11-08 14:51:41 UTC
Me thinks the resulting burst dps might be very overwhelming in a couple situations.

- Like the current proposal looks a little like 700dps rapid light cerbs to me, meaning in smaller gangfights, there logi is either t2 and thus able to somewhat tank that with sufficient logistics, or they'll be moslten to the ground with a short burst if T1.
The current rate of fire appears to send two volleys onto a target, before (remote armorreps) finish cycling, which is twice what's been usual before - Given that a cerb volleys for 1.2k-1.4k with excellent aplication that sounds alot like you'd only need some 15 cerbs to blap hostile logistics, without them doing anything unless they start projecting reps before the first damage comes in. While this is just a minor issue, The fast RoF working together with 70-90km damage application might be quite overwhelming on that ship atleast.

- Caracals crushing frigatefleets tend to live for only brief moments, and the frigs already die within 3-4 volleys normally. Now you can kill twice as many frigs in the same time. They can't do anything about it aswell, as missiles can't be disrupted - (going for the usual attempt of flying TD-AFs to deal with groups of cruisers/battlecruisers/battleships), it works perfectly against turret platforms, but doesn't at all against anything light missile.

- When flying in a small nanogang with example a couple talos, a cerb and a huginn, that cerb alone will now get rid of every tackler at twice the speed, the 40sec reload time potentially not even being a real hurdle, as you can just align out and warp back to your mates (150km range are easily pulled within 40seconds) in most normal situations.

Mean I love caracals and cerberi (always those issues finding the plural for mythological creatures) and thus this intended change, but I kinda feel bad for the things I usually shoot at.
+1 for further buffing an already great weapon system, but personally I think they've been great enough already.
Markku Laaksonen
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#107 - 2013-11-08 14:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Markku Laaksonen
"Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds."

One of the 'strengths' of missiles is 100% selectable damage types. With a 40s reload time to only damage type I'll be selecting is whatever I already have loaded. (Ignoring the fact that more Caldari ships than not are locked into kinetic bonuses, which is terrible.)


EDIT: I say 'strengths' because selectable damage types is branded as a strength, but in practice less helpful than it sounds. In a heated engagement, what missile user has ever shot his target with all four damage types to see what did most damage and then use that? I use kinetic on my kinetic bonused ships, and thermal on my ships that don't have a damage type bonus because that tends to be the lowest average resist according to what I've read.

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Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#108 - 2013-11-08 15:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
I am torn. On one hand, the times I use RLML (e.g. solo caracals) I am fighting against targets I can kill quickly and GTFO, and I'm generally not aiming to fight other cruisers or hull sizes up etc. So on one hand, when I am soloing in a RLML Cara, this change will actually help me because I will kill the targets much more quickly so I can GTFO more quickly.

On the other hand, if I am fighting multiple small targets the reload time is going to severely cripple my ability to fight for more than a short period.

So, I dunno, it makes RLML ships better at hit-and-run attacks, which is how I use them currently, but it now pins me to doing little else in these ships.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#109 - 2013-11-08 15:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
I still think its the wrong approach..

just add new launchers with lower fittings and maybe add new missiles:-

light torp launcher - light torps
lower fittings - lower expl rad/ higher exp velocity / higher missile velocity/range/ lower damage per volley

medium assault missile launcher - medium assault missiles
lower fittings - lower expl rad/ higher exp velocity /higher missile velocity/range/ lower damage per volley

nerf range on current torps and rename them heavy torps

nerf range on current HAMS

this would solve what Rapids are trying to do but in a more balanced way and makes much more sense /less OP than rapids will/are now.

and DELETE rapids....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-11-08 15:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Niac
Hey CCP Rise, why can't we have multi-ammo consumption variations?
For instance:

Cruiser Class:
Dual Rocket Launcher I

Battleship:
Quad Standard Missile Launcher I
Dual HAM

Etc. Decent dps, but you unload a ridiculous amount of ammo. This would be something for the new marauders to utilize, they have the cargo hold and movement capabilities to use short range launchers like this effectively.

Edit: Would be easier to use the 'supermissile' concept for art, right? Like.. The quad only fires one missile for the time being. Down the road, I imagine it would be 4 missiles corkscrewing around each other.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.

XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#111 - 2013-11-08 15:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: XvXTeacherVxV
This drastic of a concept change makes me even more convinced now that this idea was ill-conceived. There are much better ways to improve the choices that battleship pilots make with missiles but I think it's probably way too late to scrap these launchers and go back to the drawing board since CCP has already spent time on models & effects for them (remember folks, there's no turning back with Rubicon).

So now, they HAVE to work...somehow, thus the 40s reload time. I'm really not a fan of these huge-reload time mods because its bad game design. I say that because you're creating time where your player is doing nothing, which is a boring experience as a gamer. Its not the same with the defense mods since you can still fly around and shoot stuff even if you can't rep up but the same isn't true for weapons.

I already spend lots of time doing nothing in this game, don't make me do nothing in combat too. So maybe they're balanced, maybe they're not, but that's not the reason I won't use them.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2013-11-08 15:11:27 UTC
Seriously? You couldn't find a way to tweak missile stats so that rapid launchers do ~75% of the theoretical DPS of whatever their on-size equivalent is, but with better damage application? How does something that nerfs your DPS in exchange for better performance in some specific scenario (in which you are fighting something smaller than usual) not constitute a tradeoff / niche fitting?

If you can't figure out a set of numbers that will make rapids apply more damage to undersized targets than their on-sized counterparts while applying less damage to on-size or plus-size targets... well I'm not really sure what to say. You're doing it wrong?

This idea sucks. It makes rapids utterly useless for any small gang / solo ships and is totally unnecessary. Rapids already are a niche weapon: if they're not niche enough then fiddle the dps / application numbers again until they strike an appropriate balance rather than turning another niche strategy into a useless gimmick.
Azurius Dante
Banana Corp
#113 - 2013-11-08 15:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Azurius Dante
Wouldn't it be a better idea to have a set reload time of 40seconds, but can be effected by the rate of fire skills, bonus' and fittings?


Going to take a guess that you can't do this though in the time frame.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#114 - 2013-11-08 15:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Motoko Innocentius
Ok here's my take, this sounds like a good change.

For tweaking, i'd say lowering continuous dps by letsay 10-15% of rlml's would a good sweet spot. By continuous i mean if i have 2 x 3 rlml groups and i empty one launcher and start shooting with the other one when the reload time for first one will be done when second one starts reloading. For when using both a 50-60% increase in dps would be what i'd say is somethign i'd be willing to easily have for loss of some continuous dps. (these numbers are to be reflected on current rlml on tranquil and current proposal of rhml for rubicon)

Why? This gives me the perfect way of having extra dps for when i need it, for when i need less, i use less.

Hams, hams need abit more application ability, not much, enough to make them that small bit more effective against cruisers when using a painter (i see painter as being the webber blasters love for damage application). I'd also like to see some of hams max flight time moved to it's velocity, 25% or so. All this applies to torpedoes aswell, though i'd see torpedoes needing slightly more range also.

Hmls, well i'm not sure what to do with them, more application maybe, though currently, i see no reason for it, they're great for fleets and in fleets you can easily use painters and webbers to maximize damage output, just like you can with cruise missiles.

Anyways thats my opinion, and for the whiners, losing abit of overall dps for the ability to produce bigger burst (especially in solo and small gang situations where you really need to break that navy omens 200dps tank), long reload time doesn't mean you have to shoot all missiles from all tubes at the same time, use your brain and start making better arguments.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2013-11-08 15:23:52 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Ok here's my take, this sounds like a good change.

For tweaking, i'd say lowering continuous dps by letsay 10-15% of rlml's would a good sweet spot. By continuous i mean if i have 2 x 3 rlml groups and i empty one launcher and start shooting with the other one when the reload time for first one will be done when second one starts reloading. For when using both a 50-60% increase in dps would be what i'd say is somethign i'd be willing to easily have for loss of some continuous dps. (these numbers are to be reflected on current rlml on tranquil and current proposal of rhml for rubicon)

Why? This gives me the perfect way of having extra dps for when i need it, for when i need less, i use less.

Hams, hams need abit more application ability, not much, enough to make them that small bit more effective against cruisers when using a painter (i see painter as being the webber blasters love for damage application). I'd also like to see some of hams max flight time moved to it's velocity, 25% or so. All this applies to torpedoes aswell, though i'd see torpedoes needing slightly more range also.

Hmls, well i'm not sure what to do with them, more application maybe, though currently, i see no reason for it, they're great for fleets and in fleets you can easily use painters and webbers to maximize damage output, just like you can with cruise missiles.

Anyways thats my opinion, and for the whiners, losing abit of overall dps for the ability to produce bigger burst (especially in solo and small gang situations where you really need to break that navy omens 200dps tank), long reload time doesn't mean you have to shoot all missiles from all tubes at the same time, use your brain and start making better arguments.



Hams are ok when you fire in BC and larger. They make painter be somewhat useful. The problem is nto on the hams, the problem is that the band of speed and signature where missiles do full damage reducing to no damage is TOO narrow

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2013-11-08 15:25:13 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Ok here's my take, this sounds like a good change.

For tweaking, i'd say lowering continuous dps by letsay 10-15% of rlml's would a good sweet spot. By continuous i mean if i have 2 x 3 rlml groups and i empty one launcher and start shooting with the other one when the reload time for first one will be done when second one starts reloading. For when using both a 50-60% increase in dps would be what i'd say is somethign i'd be willing to easily have for loss of some continuous dps. (these numbers are to be reflected on current rlml on tranquil and current proposal of rhml for rubicon)

Why? This gives me the perfect way of having extra dps for when i need it, for when i need less, i use less.

Hams, hams need abit more application ability, not much, enough to make them that small bit more effective against cruisers when using a painter (i see painter as being the webber blasters love for damage application). I'd also like to see some of hams max flight time moved to it's velocity, 25% or so. All this applies to torpedoes aswell, though i'd see torpedoes needing slightly more range also.

Hmls, well i'm not sure what to do with them, more application maybe, though currently, i see no reason for it, they're great for fleets and in fleets you can easily use painters and webbers to maximize damage output, just like you can with cruise missiles.

Anyways thats my opinion, and for the whiners, losing abit of overall dps for the ability to produce bigger burst (especially in solo and small gang situations where you really need to break that navy omens 200dps tank), long reload time doesn't mean you have to shoot all missiles from all tubes at the same time, use your brain and start making better arguments.



We do not care for the tiny bit of DPS. 40 Seconds is enough for the other guy to just deagro and get away in gates.

Its damm too long! Passive tanks can rebuilld a LOT of HP on that time.

Basically if you are alone you cannot kill a well fit cruiser!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#117 - 2013-11-08 15:25:31 UTC
CCP Rise, well, how would this translate to the mass murder of smaller ships, ships that don't have much ehp to begin with?What?

Especially since you guys have still not introduced any effective ewar counter to missiles yet (still waiting for TD/TE/TC missile effects Straight). Currently turret boats can be TD'd to uselessness against small stuff, let alone the mechanics of tracking and getting under it. However, speed reduction on light missiles is not very effective and mwd sig blooms cancel it out, etc. Would a mechanic like this simply result in the obsolescence of small ships?

So, making these things burst dps monsters I don't think is a good idea unless you simultaneously introduce some the new TD module that affects missiles. Btw when you do, look at how TD's currently render a turret boat useless and how small turret boats in particular lack available slots to fit the TC and TE that don't even remedy the situation enough v a TD anyway (which is probably a good thing since we will not want new TC&TEs being stacked on a ship to make them total pwnzors of small stuff or ridiculous snipers).

So when you do put missile TDs in the game make sure that missile TC&TEs are similarly gimped as requiring multiple modules to even cancel the effects of one missile TD. Also consider that Amarr and Gallente ships have less mids available to even fit these like caldari and minmatar currently do to neutralize turret boats.

To address the midslot shortage, you could simultaneously overhaul TDs altogether to reduce their impact and increase the ship bonuses for the TD-specialized ships. Do this as well for damps. This would be keeping things in line with what you did for ECM boats and the ECM modules.

Anyway, what you propose worries me. If a missile boat like a RLML Caracal is already a terror to frigs. What would it become with this new mechanic? I like flying frigs. Frigs are not op. Tengus and Caracals are already doing well. Is what you propose going to result in missile boats online? Please be careful.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#118 - 2013-11-08 15:28:51 UTC
Wow, we're gonna have a legit MLRS - I've always loved those - a hail of destruction, rains on the head of your foes, then you pack and GTFO.
The quick unload/slow reload would force some new dynamics on the field. I imagine it like that - 4-5 of those warp in, unload all they got then disappear just as they came - would look awesome in small skirmishes.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-11-08 15:29:49 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I have a different idea.


How about instead of calling them rapids cause they fire off a bunch of missiles quickly,
instead,

Completely remove reloading from rapid launchers.


adjust their RoF and whatever else so that they're balanced.

But instead of worrying about reloading, the advantage that these launchers would have is that they never reload, unless you're swapping damage types.


^this^

LOL
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-11-08 15:31:08 UTC
Vesan Terakol wrote:
Wow, we're gonna have a legit MLRS - I've always loved those - a hail of destruction, rains on the head of your foes, then you pack and GTFO.
The quick unload/slow reload would force some new dynamics on the field. I imagine it like that - 4-5 of those warp in, unload all they got then disappear just as they came - would look awesome in small skirmishes.



You mean you will fire a volley that will make your enemy angry but not where close to be in danger of death... and then you will run away?

Not very efficient way of PVP

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"