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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#721 - 2013-11-10 21:38:10 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.

This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?


Still far too good vs smaller ships.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#722 - 2013-11-10 21:43:01 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Still far too good vs smaller ships.
Errr... That's pretty much what RLMLs are like currently. Are they OP'd?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#723 - 2013-11-10 21:50:30 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.

This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?


Still far too good vs smaller ships.



Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#724 - 2013-11-10 21:53:36 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.


"... I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say."

They pushed loot scatter through and now it's like this:

"I fully intend to look in to removing scattering from all sites, but that wasn't going to fit into this release as we also need to take a look at the loot tables for all exploration sites." - CCP Affinity

I wonder if this will turn out the same way.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#725 - 2013-11-10 21:58:03 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Major Killz wrote:

So what I propose to do with light missiles is this. Increase signature resolution by 100%, Increase explosion velocity by 50% and reduce missile flight time so that an absolutely skilled missile users light missiles would have a 36,000m-flight time to a static target. I think that would be enough to put them back in line with most long-range weapon systems.


This would be fine with the RLML was buffed in terms of DPS to project the same DPS quantities as other long range weapon systems. IE 300-400 damage. (400 dmg Rail-Moa/Thorax) And somehow you didn't make them as gay as HMLs unable to hit anything smaller than a BS.


You fail to see the strength of missiles is their range. The frigate short-range missile system is the rocket and those hit out to 15km while blasters hit out to 2k. Frigate rails can hit long or short range depending on your 10 ammo choices. Frigate LML hit out to 42 (unbonused) RLML usually only can hit out to 42km when they're unbonused. So basically the same as what you have.

And what you also don't realize is flight time is drastically inflated when comparing to Optimal. A 36k flight time will be not be enough to catch a 5k m/s ship orbiting you at 20. So once again, a frigate is non-killable by a anti-frigate cruiser.



What? Rockets do not have 15,000m base flight times unbonused. In fact I have no idea what you’re on about. From that point you went from one silly statement to another and of course insinuating I didn’t understand this and that. Bra! Your corp. often ends up on the bad end of anything I do with or without missiles. Check yourself.

Also grown men are speaking. You’re excused.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Utopa Kashuken
Eos Tribe
#726 - 2013-11-10 22:02:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.


Poor light missiles...
Our CCP Rise only know damage types.
He seems do not know T2 Advanced High Damage Light Missiles, T2 Advanced High Precision Light Missiles, Faction Light Missiles, and Standard Light Missiles.
Perhaps they all forgoten... Sad
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#727 - 2013-11-10 22:13:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.

This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?


Still far too good vs smaller ships.



Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.


CCP has never stated a Caracal should function as an anti-frigate platform. In fact the players regulated it to that purpose, as it seemed to perform well in that role with what was a niche weapon system. However, there’s also an Omen set-up that uses small lasers that performs well as an anti-frigate platform. Same can be done to a Thorax and it was not uncommon not to long ago to see small blasters used with said ship.

I’m not sure why CCP introduced rapid light missile launchers at all. It’s the only mid size weapon system that uses small ammunition. They could just remove it completely. Or they could remove cruise missiles, cruise missile launchers, and Heavy missile launchers and just have rapid light missile launchers and rapid heavy missile launchers. Problem solved. Balance ammunition accordingly and move on.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Elisk Skyforge
State War Academy
#728 - 2013-11-10 22:15:31 UTC
So the idea is to make these launchers obsolete for PVE and most PVP except gate camping ?
If that's the way things are going to be then what about keeping the reload time at something more logical like 20 secs and the rate of fire at 10 sec-ish so that they are not weirdly unbalanced ?
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#729 - 2013-11-10 22:24:47 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
CCP has never stated a Caracal should function as an anti-frigate platform. In fact the players regulated it to that purpose, as it seemed to perform well in that role with what was a niche weapon system. However, there’s also an Omen set-up that uses small lasers that performs well as an anti-frigate platform. Same can be done to a Thorax and it was not uncommon not to long ago to see small blasters used with said ship.

I’m not sure why CCP introduced rapid light missile launchers at all. It’s the only mid size weapon system that uses small ammunition. They could just remove it completely. Or they could remove cruise missiles, cruise missile launchers, and Heavy missile launchers and just have rapid light missile launchers and rapid heavy missile launchers. Problem solved. Balance ammunition accordingly and move on.
Well CCP generally doesn't state that any ship should function as XYZ. Generally. They have on occasion, often with disastrous results. But for the most part, they hold true to the sandbox ideal.

That being said, it's pretty obvious what the purpose of RLMLs were. They've been around since forever. And the reason for them was printed right in the description (granted, one of the few cases where the description and game reality actually matched up). But the point of the weapon has always been to shoot down frigs and dessies. Cruise and Heavies fit a different role, and I think you know that. You're just being facetious.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#730 - 2013-11-10 22:25:45 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Major Killz wrote:

So what I propose to do with light missiles is this. Increase signature resolution by 100%, Increase explosion velocity by 50% and reduce missile flight time so that an absolutely skilled missile users light missiles would have a 36,000m-flight time to a static target. I think that would be enough to put them back in line with most long-range weapon systems.


This would be fine with the RLML was buffed in terms of DPS to project the same DPS quantities as other long range weapon systems. IE 300-400 damage. (400 dmg Rail-Moa/Thorax) And somehow you didn't make them as gay as HMLs unable to hit anything smaller than a BS.


You fail to see the strength of missiles is their range. The frigate short-range missile system is the rocket and those hit out to 15km while blasters hit out to 2k. Frigate rails can hit long or short range depending on your 10 ammo choices. Frigate LML hit out to 42 (unbonused) RLML usually only can hit out to 42km when they're unbonused. So basically the same as what you have.

And what you also don't realize is flight time is drastically inflated when comparing to Optimal. A 36k flight time will be not be enough to catch a 5k m/s ship orbiting you at 20. So once again, a frigate is non-killable by a anti-frigate cruiser.



What? Rockets do not have 15,000m base flight times unbonused. In fact I have no idea what you’re on about. From that point you went from one silly statement to another and of course insinuating I didn’t understand this and that. Bra! Your corp. often ends up on the bad end of anything I do with or without missiles. Check yourself.

Also grown men are speaking. You’re excused.



His calculations assume you have both missile range skills trained to 5
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#731 - 2013-11-10 22:26:44 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.

This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?


Still far too good vs smaller ships.


Yes a missile actually be good at what it's designed for is always too good. Am I right?
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#732 - 2013-11-10 22:32:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

(think Ancilliary Shield Boosters).



The main issue I have with a 40 second reload time since you are comparing them to ASBs, is that every ASB fit I can think of uses 2x ASBs so that you can sustain your tank over the course of a fight.

There is also currently no way to cancel a reload, and alot can happen over the course of 40 seconds. In fact if I were to use these in systems that have dockable stations, I would rather wait out my aggression timer siting on a station with half a reload left then to actually wait the 40 seconds to reload them.

If the worry is the amount of burst DPS these can do, then let the reload be no more then 20 seconds which is twice that of any other missile system instead of 3x. Lower the burst capabilities by decreasing the rate of fire slightly if you have to. The more you make a weapon system like this a niche, the fewer places you will actually see these.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#733 - 2013-11-10 22:39:34 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
CCP has never stated a Caracal should function as an anti-frigate platform. In fact the players regulated it to that purpose, as it seemed to perform well in that role with what was a niche weapon system. However, there’s also an Omen set-up that uses small lasers that performs well as an anti-frigate platform. Same can be done to a Thorax and it was not uncommon not to long ago to see small blasters used with said ship.

I’m not sure why CCP introduced rapid light missile launchers at all. It’s the only mid size weapon system that uses small ammunition. They could just remove it completely. Or they could remove cruise missiles, cruise missile launchers, and Heavy missile launchers and just have rapid light missile launchers and rapid heavy missile launchers. Problem solved. Balance ammunition accordingly and move on.
Well CCP generally doesn't state that any ship should function as XYZ. Generally. They have on occasion, often with disastrous results. But for the most part, they hold true to the sandbox ideal.

That being said, it's pretty obvious what the purpose of RLMLs were. They've been around since forever. And the reason for them was printed right in the description (granted, one of the few cases where the description and game reality actually matched up). But the point of the weapon has always been to shoot down frigs and dessies. Cruise and Heavies fit a different role, and I think you know that. You're just being facetious.


No, I’m suggesting that almost every ship and weapon system that has been introduced in game has been used for a purpose other than what CCP intended. Which has been a BIG part of what we see as balance issues these past years. Very view concepts they had are being used for their original purpose. I could name them off but if you’re not ret@rded and have been in game since 2007. Then…

Some players just formulate new ways of using said weapon system and ship and others follow.

Also, don’t tell me what I do or do not know.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#734 - 2013-11-10 22:43:25 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Major Killz wrote:

So what I propose to do with light missiles is this. Increase signature resolution by 100%, Increase explosion velocity by 50% and reduce missile flight time so that an absolutely skilled missile users light missiles would have a 36,000m-flight time to a static target. I think that would be enough to put them back in line with most long-range weapon systems.


This would be fine with the RLML was buffed in terms of DPS to project the same DPS quantities as other long range weapon systems. IE 300-400 damage. (400 dmg Rail-Moa/Thorax) And somehow you didn't make them as gay as HMLs unable to hit anything smaller than a BS.


You fail to see the strength of missiles is their range. The frigate short-range missile system is the rocket and those hit out to 15km while blasters hit out to 2k. Frigate rails can hit long or short range depending on your 10 ammo choices. Frigate LML hit out to 42 (unbonused) RLML usually only can hit out to 42km when they're unbonused. So basically the same as what you have.

And what you also don't realize is flight time is drastically inflated when comparing to Optimal. A 36k flight time will be not be enough to catch a 5k m/s ship orbiting you at 20. So once again, a frigate is non-killable by a anti-frigate cruiser.



What? Rockets do not have 15,000m base flight times unbonused. In fact I have no idea what you’re on about. From that point you went from one silly statement to another and of course insinuating I didn’t understand this and that. Bra! Your corp. often ends up on the bad end of anything I do with or without missiles. Check yourself.

Also grown men are speaking. You’re excused.



His calculations assume you have both missile range skills trained to 5


Well his calculations are wrong @ missile range skills to level 6 Roll

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#735 - 2013-11-10 22:43:30 UTC
The Rapid launcher work just like the smallest version of Med guns or large guns. dual 180mm rock desotryers and frigates, hell 220mm usually rock them, same with electrons, and focused. Range guns have always rocked whatever they shot at no matter their size, as long as it does fly in a Z it's dead. The rapid launchers "were" going to fill a hole that guns and drones already covered. The rapid launchers will do great against smaller ships (as they are suppose to) and ok to poor to ships of the same size or large, just like the smallest versions of guns do now.
And drones, well if you have a drone boat you can have heav or sentry, med, and scout drones all in one, so you can take on any size, as well as Ewar drones, logi drones, and so on. Same with guns, you have more options for guns, as well as the ammo gives you differet range and damage options, you get the T2 ammo, and ammo that give -50%, to +50% and everything between, where missiles get their T2 version, defenders (close to worthless) and FOF (worthless). Yes you can pick damage type, but with Caldari you really can't as they usually get a Kin bonus, and changing damage type in the middle of combat isn't smart when it takes 10sec per change. Also Proj can use all damage types, hybrids are by far the hardest hitting close range weapons, and good range also, so the damage they put out means little, and lasers pretty much never need changed out and if they do it takes l1 second. Missiles really do have the least to options, yes they don't miss IF you are in range, but also the damage you do to a moving target, no matter how they are moving goes down pretty steeply.
Like I said before IF these changes come out, might as well just rid EVE of rapid launchers. They weren't OP anyway, just don't give therm the radius bonues and such and they would be fine. Now thery will be worthless. Oh well another loss for missiles, thank god I have all 3 weapon types pretty much maxed out.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#736 - 2013-11-10 22:46:58 UTC
how about for rapid launchers they launch two missiles instead of one.

so that doubles their dps. but the reload is made to be 20 seconds because you have to load twice as much ammo.

so you get great dps but also have a long reload time.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#737 - 2013-11-10 22:50:02 UTC
Onictus wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Not a good idea Rise. And have the real bad feeling you are just gonna push this thru anyway. It's basically gonna be "loot bukkake" all over again. Tossed up on the forums a couple weeks before release. Player base tells you it's a horrible idea. Gets pushed thru anyway. Becomes a horrible game mechanic that players avoid. All this has happened, and will happen again.

This is not a difficult module to implement. You just make it do 15% less sustained dps in comparison to the long-range missile system. HML Caracal does ~250dps, RLML Caracal does ~215dps. Trade damage, for better fitting and application against smaller targets. So BS-sized you'd see ~700dps Cruise, and ~600dps RHML. Does it massacre smaller ships? Yes. that's the whole point. Does it get it's ass handed to it by same-size ships with standard fitting? Yes. Which is the balance. Done. Why is this hard?


Still far too good vs smaller ships.



Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.


That's the point of destroyers, and they come with no hp and are now slower than cruisers, and don't do it very well at 60km.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#738 - 2013-11-10 22:50:48 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.

Blasting smaller ships is the point of destroyers already and they don't have any other role. What do they become if the Caracal is better than all of them in every single way ?
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#739 - 2013-11-10 22:51:13 UTC
All the feedback we got last year, it was very clear we here headed in not the right direction. I wanted to pull us back in the right one. So goals for 2012. What is it that CCP is going to be doing for you, the EVE player as we go through this year?..

We're gonna stop the Jesus features. We're gonna stop the huge "There's gonna be one great amazing thing that will change EVE forever" attitude....

We're gonna be about concentration on the industrialist, the pvpers, the null seccers, the factional warfare players, the role players, everybody thats actualy played at the heart of the game. That's what we are gonna be about this year, is that core spaceship game.

Iteration is not a dirty word. There are so many things that we can go back to...that we can re-balance...add things to. Which isn't creating something completely brand new..but going back and giving those things a bit of invigoration...

Building on that, you [eve player base] are the important people...you guys have very clear views on what is a great game. We [CCP] need to make sure that the game is fun for you. We need to make that we are delivering something you want to play

An so that listening, that engaging back with the community, that developers becoming more accessible [and] looking for that feedback, getting back what it is that you want to see in the game. That is what we are doing this year.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

----Senior Producer Jon Lander
EVE Fanfest 2012: EVE Keynote


Should be required viewing for all new developers.

I guess it was one of those 1 year plans. Sad

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#740 - 2013-11-10 22:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Yes a missile actually be good at what it's designed for is always too good. Am I right?

Nope. The thing is more like "when missile users are happy with their weapon system, it's obviously OP."

PS : In fact, AC have the same problem : either the weapon system is OP and massively used, or balanced and not used because people don't understand its strengths.