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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Kane Fenris
NWP
#481 - 2013-11-09 17:14:27 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers



if thats true its is really wired but maybe a solution if caras bonus was extended to lml ppl would have the choice between sustainded and peak dps on lm
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#482 - 2013-11-09 17:15:56 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers

That's wrong unless you plan using them on cruisers with no bonus to RLML : effective rof for LML is 8,45s with ALLV ; versus 8,46 for new RLML. These numbers consider Rise stats to be ALLV stats BTW.

But the only cruisers without rof bonus to RLML are the Scythe Fleet Issue and the Osprey Navy Issue and you are completely denying the advantage of the front loaded dps which is as useful in fight to kill something as it is on AAR/ASB to survive a fight.


You do realize that a cycle time of 8.45s is LESS than 8.46s, and that faster firing gives you MORE damage?
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#483 - 2013-11-09 17:16:16 UTC
WaTeR Ubersnol wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers



This ^^

Cause it seems Rise has already decided, more or less, perhaps possible solution could be in giving LML a 15% buff and reducing RLML reload time from 40 to 30 seconds? That way we are left with a choice, not as good but still choice to use a weapon system that can do sustained damage.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#484 - 2013-11-09 17:16:47 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers



If that does nto proove that somethign is very wrogn with these proposed changes.. then to hell with it.. just set all weapons attribute in eve with random dice, because nothing else matters.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#485 - 2013-11-09 17:17:04 UTC
Also, light missile destroyers will outdps RLM caracals, even with the caracal getting a damage module advantage
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#486 - 2013-11-09 17:21:21 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Also, light missile destroyers will outdps RLM caracals, even with the caracal getting a damage module advantage

If you keep with this complaint line all you'll make them do is nerf LML's. CCP doesn't care about what you think of their Super Cool Idea, just look at the marauders thread. Hundreds of pages of feedback on a **** concept that pleased no one, but the devs thought it was a cool gimmick (just like rapid launchers are now a gimmick instead of a weapon system) so who gives a **** what anybody else thinks?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#487 - 2013-11-09 17:21:44 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Chessur wrote:
I was speaking about the launchers specifically. The ammo itself recieved a paltry 10% bonus. We are talking about RLML's not light missiles i thought. I was speaking to the RLM's, which did not recieve any bonus and have been unchanged for years. If you seriously think that 10% bonus to the base ammo damage is what cause everyone to switch over to RLMs' you are wrong.

ASs michael harari already pointed out, there is simply no other option for cruiser based missiles systems. You are stuck with RLM's or nothing- that is why you see the proliferation.

Again CCP needs to get with the program, and fix HMLs / HAMs before worrying about RLMs

10% damage bonus is significat. But on top of that, explosion radius have been reduced by 20%, and LML received huge fitting buff. But that's still a direct buff to RLML, and a huge one.

Light missiles have been insanely buffed as some kind of forgiveness for the needed HML nerf.

And HAM are still very powerful, and HML are now a long range weapon as it should be. But you can't ask a weapon with 30km range to be as powerful as blasters.


we are not talking about LML, RLML. LMLs only recieved a very small fiting buff- either way, it has no relevance on our current converstaion.

Light missiles with a 10% bonus to base ammo damage is really not that significant TBFH.

HAM's are not powerful, because they cannot even hit cruisers for full damage, even with a web. They have no projection, have horrible fitting, and horrible application. Unless you are shooting BS or BC- get something else.

HML's have around the same range as RLML's. HMLs like HAM's have no damge application, and have no DPS. THey are bad. YOu clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so just stop. HAM's are nowhere near as 'powerful' as blaster, i don't even know what 'Powerful' means in this contex. Please stop.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#488 - 2013-11-09 17:22:45 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
LOL and after that please nerf rockets and cruise missiles because those are still usable. It's just so unfair that missile users are left with any missile system that's not total and utter garbage.

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#489 - 2013-11-09 17:24:41 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers


+1
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#490 - 2013-11-09 17:24:55 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
LOL and after that please nerf rockets and cruise missiles because those are still usable. It's just so unfair that missile users are left with any missile system that's not total and utter garbage.

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.


Except none of that is true. With proper positioning and maneuvering, you can apply full turret dps to small ships moving fast. You cannot do that with missiles. You can headshot a taranis with an oracle. A taranis will take like 5 dps from cruise missiles, no matter how you position yourself. Also LR missile weapons do significant less dps than LR turrets. LR turrets even outdps SR turrets in some cases (ie, beam lasers)
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#491 - 2013-11-09 17:27:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Also, light missile destroyers will outdps RLM caracals, even with the caracal getting a damage module advantage


You almost wonder if Rise or Anyone at CCP knows what a calculator, or EFT is....
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2013-11-09 17:28:41 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also, light missile destroyers will outdps RLM caracals, even with the caracal getting a damage module advantage


You almost wonder if Rise or Anyone at CCP knows what a calculator, or EFT is....



The problem is exaclty that they just use a calculator. They clearly did not ran a discreete simmulation of this idea in operation on a very small fleet (includign solo) scenario

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2013-11-09 17:30:59 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
LOL and after that please nerf rockets and cruise missiles because those are still usable. It's just so unfair that missile users are left with any missile system that's not total and utter garbage.

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.

Ok, please explain to me the real difference here. If I'm using long range lasers and I know my tracking and my optimal, flying the way I'm supposed to, am I not doing constant damage over range as well? Zealot with Scorch comes to mind.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2013-11-09 17:32:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
You generally cannot warp out and warp back when fighting inside a plex, unless your side is the one sitting on the warpin.

People complain about arty fire rate all the time. Its why we now have rail nullblobs instead of arty.

You dont need or want frontloaded dps against tackle. What you want is the ability to kill the frigate scramming your fleetmate now, instead of in 30s. The entire goddamn point is that it is consistent, applied dps. If you wanted to sometimes volley a frigate and sometimes do nothing, you could just sit in an oracle 50km behind your fleet.

These RLML will kill tackle twice as fast as before !

If you want prolonged and steady dps, HML will do it, or a destroyer, you know, the ships whose the role is to destroy frigates. Dictor have been horribly buffed BTW.

Oh, and your last sentence is interesting, because you are implying that larger ships are not interesting only because of the boring gameplay of large weapons, which is stupid.

I don't even see these RLML as nerfed considering the dps they will have before reload. I'm actually puzzled as people can't understand the advantage of removing the first frigates twice as fast as before. Bye Bye all active tanked frigate. Even twin MASB frigate tank will collapse under the fire of these RLML.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think these new RLML will be as OP as before and the solution is Garviel's one : just nerf light missiles and everything will be fine.



BEcause as we pointed with MATH. You can make some t1 frigate basically absorb ALL the damage a caracal can do before running out of juice. T2 frigates or faction frigates then its so easy that its a JOKE.

This change is a NERF also to killing tackle on the most common scenarios

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#495 - 2013-11-09 17:33:03 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
LOL and after that please nerf rockets and cruise missiles because those are still usable. It's just so unfair that missile users are left with any missile system that's not total and utter garbage.

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.


Except none of that is true. With proper positioning and maneuvering, you can apply full turret dps to small ships moving fast. You cannot do that with missiles. You can headshot a taranis with an oracle. A taranis will take like 5 dps from cruise missiles, no matter how you position yourself. Also LR missile weapons do significant less dps than LR turrets. LR turrets even outdps SR turrets in some cases (ie, beam lasers)

Thank you very much, good sir!
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#496 - 2013-11-09 17:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
LOL and after that please nerf rockets and cruise missiles because those are still usable. It's just so unfair that missile users are left with any missile system that's not total and utter garbage.

It's the same problem HML had. CCP when they buffed LML just made them new HML on frigate scale. I said it at that time. The problem is that missiles do constant damage over range, and doing the same damage than LR turrets with short range ammo up to max range without tracking issue is OP.

Ok, please explain to me the real difference here. If I'm using long range lasers and I know my tracking and my optimal, flying the way I'm supposed to, am I not doing constant damage over range as well? Zealot with Scorch comes to mind.


With proper flying, you can hit frigates with oracles even. I was trying to get out from syndicate after that ccp event, and I was camped in by a taranis. I volleyed him to half hull and he immediately warped out.

With a missile ship, say a cruise phoon, he would have just ignored all my damage and easily tackled me.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#497 - 2013-11-09 17:34:05 UTC
Chessur wrote:
we are not talking about LML, RLML. LMLs only recieved a very small fiting buff- either way, it has no relevance on our current converstaion.

Light missiles with a 10% bonus to base ammo damage is really not that significant TBFH.

HAM's are not powerful, because they cannot even hit cruisers for full damage, even with a web. They have no projection, have horrible fitting, and horrible application. Unless you are shooting BS or BC- get something else.

HML's have around the same range as RLML's. HMLs like HAM's have no damge application, and have no DPS. THey are bad. YOu clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so just stop. HAM's are nowhere near as 'powerful' as blaster, i don't even know what 'Powerful' means in this contex. Please stop.

You look like very scared someone could look at your precious light missiles...

Also, a hundred of a second is litteraly meaningless. 8,45 basicaly equal 8,46, moreover when you completely discard the whole idea behind the function of the weapon system.

@Michael Harari : Oh, I already heard that before... Yep, missiles are not turret and you can't alpha your target from afar, but LR turrets can't hit anything at shorter range. I know it and I hope you know it too ; there is already hundreds of pages of this debate in the HML nerf thread. What I'm saying is only that the situation is almost the same now with small LR weapons. I'm talking about facts and small LR weapons, not philosophy and large weapons.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#498 - 2013-11-09 17:35:46 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Also, a hundred of a second is litteraly meaningless. 8,45 basicaly equal 8,46, moreover when you completely discard the whole idea behind the function of the weapon system.


So what you are saying is I can fit frigate weapons to my cruiser, do more dps, and have pretty much all of my fitting to do whatever I want with?

Edit: Also, some LR weapons have better tracking than some SR weapons.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2013-11-09 17:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Michael Harari wrote:

With proper flying, you can hit frigates with oracles even. I was trying to get out from syndicate after that ccp event, and I was camped in by a taranis. I volleyed him to half hull and he immediately warped out.

With a missile ship, say a cruise phoon, he would have just ignored all my damage and easily tackled me.

Yep, true. I was in Oracle, camping suspects at Jita undock and with 3 sebo it's super easy to oneshot so many small things from 20 km up to 60 or more. We're talking large guns here guys - no missile ship can do the same so please stop shitting around how much missiles are OP.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#500 - 2013-11-09 17:40:27 UTC
One of the main differences between missiles and other weapon systems is the flexibility. I would really like to see the new additions embrace this philosophy, rather than restricting it.

Being able to change the damage type only works effectively on some ships, where they don't have a static bonus to one damage type from the hull. I was excited when some of the recent changes gave back some of this flexibility, like with the Scythe Fleet Issue, and Navy Drake. Adjusting damage type isn't the only time you might want to missiles during a fight however.

Changing between Fury/Precision missiles and Navy can be done to maximize the damage done against small or large targets, and fast or slow moving. Right now I don't think these are used as much as they should be, though that may speak more to balance of the T2 missiles, than having the option.

FoF missiles are used when jammed or sensor dampened. Just recently in Curse I was fighting a kiting Drake using FoF missiles once he was jammed, and it effectively forced away our support ships.

I like the idea of being able to front-load damage at the expense of reload time. I also think the opposite would be appealing under certain circumstances - to be able to reload smaller batches of missiles faster, to take advantage of the ability to switch missiles more often.

Having the flexibility for a tradeoff between reload time and sustained DPS seems like a great option for a new missile rig or module. Thinking forward, I think this would be the best way to introduce such a mechanic.

I would suggest that if the RHML is to be added, that it be done under the v1 configuration, so it has the flexibility to be used in PvP and PvE; in both short, and sustained battles. Don't just add the Rapid Launchers and restrict them to only a specific type of engagement. It would be a waste.