Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Target painters wouldn't even be needed for a ship that tries to scram kite with an mwd as you most likely either had it hard tackled or webbed so it couldn't pull range. Not to mention the fact that the bellicose gets more sustained dps when fit with rlmls compared to other rlml bonused ship because of it's sizeable (for a missile cruiser) drone bay.

This is where I have a major problem and why this nerf has hit me like a brick in the face; admittedly I have a terrible killboard but for better or worse I have been involved in a lot of pvp and lost hundreds of ships in the space of a few months... I fly mostly frigates and destroyers yet I don't think I have ever lost a single ship to RLML. So I'm wondering where all these supposedly OP RLML frig killers are at? Where is this data that shows RLML was dominating; because it looks to me like a few role players whined about it on the RHML thread and CCP took their paranoid fantasies as gospel and nerfed a useful weapon system without any justification, and all to please a small section of malcontents.

I'm not sure what you kean at the beginning of your post, since no amount of traversal alone effects missiles, just pure speed. As good as that sounds, I don't think that the solution for every anti frigate platform should be more bandwidth and I would rather have an actual fix instead of just a band aid. While that higher volley damage of the caracal looks good on paper, the lack of a direct or indirect application bonus, like the tp bonus of the bellicose, they'll be applying the same damage to most frigates, barring that a fury using bellicose is compared to a precision using caracal.

That was the point. I was illustrating how important it is for people to realize that using the mechanics provided can create a very powerful weapon system. You're right, transversal does not affect missiles, thats the whole point I was making. Meaning that a Bellicose or Caracal with a SINGLE target painter (meta4 of course), can apply 85-95% of their maximum dps using precisions regardless of what the frigate does to try and avoid it, he's getting hit for max DPS, in a level most frigates cannot tank.

Caracal with precisions = 275 dps w/o drones
Bellicose with precisions = 241 DPS w/o drones

With single TP, applied damage to a MWD target (jaguar MASB fit, in EFT)

Caracal = 246 DPS
Bellicose = 227 DPS

Using TP against a MWD target with MSE (Firetail fit in KM)

Caracal = 275 DPS (MAX)
Bellicose = 241 DPS (MAX)

The bellicose does about 20-30dps lower than the caracal (4 launcher vs 5 launcher), even with TP bonus, the belli does less with missiles. Now factor in drones, you're adding about 50 dps in drones on the belli (adding damage of 3 drones, since caracal already has 2). Therefore, the belli only applying 14-29 dps more than a caracal, and its in drones. So if you wanted to make the caracal even more equal to a bellicose, they need to add 1-2 drones. Speed wise, again, they're about equal, the caracal is 100 m/s slower.

You're getting an almost 720 volley on the caracal. an active tank fit frigate normally has the base value shield/armor points which is 300-700 for most. If you're applying even 246 dps, thats a 9-10% drop in dmg. Which equates to about a 10% reduction in volley, which puts you close to 649 volley under ideal conditions. Factoring in resists, you'll probably be hitting anywhere from 300-600 each hit. Obviously, if they fit an MSE, those numbers will go up. Against an a/b target, you're still looking at 200-400 a volley.

So, no. The Caracal with a TP is just as effective as bellicose with a TP. The only thing the bellicose has for it, is the drones.

Before stating things, you guys should really start running the numbers...

The elephant in the room being ignored is the sustained dps, according to CCP rise, sustained dps is about cut in half once you factor in reloading time, so assuming your target survives until you have to reload, the bellicose wins out because of it's drone bay. While it is true that drones would solve this problem, it is just a quick fix to the problem of the launchers themselves. A better solution would be to slightly lower the rof past the pre nerf levels, or wherever it needs to be to make the dps in the range of, if not lower than hmls. As for Rhmls, they should be given their former stats before the change to a 40 second reload was made, and have the range and application bonuses of the typhoon and raven hulls apply to them (which if I'm nit mistaken, they still don't despite the pre nerf. Back on topic, I do not believe that a bellicose should out dps (in this case sustained dps) the caracal unless it's a ridiculously gank fit bellicose or different launchers are being compared (but my opinion may be flawed) since the bellicose is meant to be a support ship. Also, I would run the numbers but I'm away from a reliable fitting tool.

So lets say you're fighting one of the two most durable assault frigates, which I believe are the hawk and vengeance and you can't break their tank, let's assume both are using their appropriate dual rep setups. So let's say you're forced to engage either with kinetic loaded, you either have to fight until they run out of cap charges/reload charges, or you wait out the 40 second reload to hit their resists holes, during which you need to rely on your tank to survive and get the kill, which is unlikely unless you can negate the af's dps in some way or fit enough tank to survive. Situations like this will usually seem like they would usually lead to a dead bellicose or caracal, since one of the advantages of missiles gets negated by 4 times the normal ammo switching time.

When running the numbers of this scenario, consider that I have no way to confirm if a dual asb or dual rep hawk or vengeance could tank the caracal's dps if it's shooting kinetic ammo without going into outrageously pimped or gimped for tank fits.

Ok, I made a comparison between HML Caracal vs railgun Thorax. On the graph you can see HML Caracal with precision and navy ammo ; and Thorax in 250mm and 200mm railguns fit with 1 TE and 2 MFS with spike. Target is with zero transversal so the graph favor railguns at lower range, but that compensate for higher damage ammo railguns have. The target is a painted MWDing Thorax (again favoring railguns). Caracal have a missile velocity bonus increasing its range, but this bonus is equal to 3 range rigs on a non bonused ship which equate the fitting effort for PG and range module for railguns.

IMO, the numbers are not bad : HML are better than 200mm railguns at 60km and beyond. They beat 250mm railguns at 80km and beyond. They don't have the tracking problem of railguns and will hence do a lot more dps to frigate (40 is still infinitely superior to zero). HML also have full damage selection vs kin/therm only for railguns. A comparison with arties would be interesting considering HML have almost 50% more alpha than railguns (and that is with rof bonus vs damage bonus).

For support, any cruiser painted + webed (hard tackle + painter on the missile ship) will take full navy HM damage.

Sustained DPS isn't whats important on the rapid launchers, thats why its labled "burst damage". Its how you fit to make the best use of the weapon system. Its an anti-frigate launcher, when you fit it to your ship, you want to make sure you're fit is capable of bonusing the weapon system to effectively kill frigates. If you fly it like a brawler, you will die. Again, lowering RoF, will not change how they kill frigates. Cruisers can fit medium neuts, and a lot more tank than frigates. How is a frigate supposed to win being bombarded by missiles that always apply close to maximum damage, and being neuted, meanwhile fighting an opponent that has double or more EHP?



Yet, the sustained dps doesn't matter, a frigate will die to either with RLML. That was the point i was making earlier. COMPARING, a Caracal (RoF bonus) to a Bellicose (RoF bonus), as they're both T1 missile cruisers. That comparison was to show, that if i can kill a average tanked firetail, flying a bellicose, a caracal should be able to just as easily. I mentioned Caracal should have drones added, you say No, yet you want more sustained DPS on the caracal? The caracal already gets more missile DPS than the bellicose, the ONLY difference is drone capacity.

I was also showing that light missiles can apply max damage fairly easily to a frigate. Hence the reload time. Frigates had no way to counter except massive amounts of EWAR. Thats why i broke down Caracal and Bellicose w/ RLML and TP. Showing that they both apply close to maximum damage with missiles, the Caracal winning in the missile DPS department, but failing in the drone capacity, some might even call that an even trade.



But see, you're thinking like a brawler, just going in and seeing what you can kill. Warp at a distance, jump around the system. See whats around. If you see jaguar/wolf/stilleto. I'm going to load scourge or nova ammo. If i see gallente, nova, or amarr, probably plasma, and caldari EM. Its not that hard to accomplish 40s to scout, warping around could easily take 20-30s. However, if you are so inclined to just barrel your way in without regret, look back a few pages. I linked a Caracal with dual LASB fit that could tank 250 dps with each booster, 500 combined (though you'll probably die quickly if you have to combine them).

Its not the weapon systems fault, that you can't scout properly. If you get jumped by cruisers or different frigates, guess you shouldn't have stayed so long. Or maybe, **** just didn't work out as intended, like in any other EVE situation regardless of weapon type.

They formerly took the place of HML. If you want sustain dps at long range, use HML. If you want more sustain dps against frigates, use destroyers. Each job has its tool.

Also, an AF is a tough oponent for any cruiser, not your RLML one only.

As for the HML vs turret graph, you are forgeting a key point : tracking. Also, as I said, with missiles you can fit a lot more tank or EWAR than with LR turrets which take huge fitting and range and tracking modules.

Ok, I made a comparison between all longest range medium weapons. The fits are as follow :
- 720mm arties Rupture w/ 3gyros+1TE ;
- Heavy Beams Omen w/ 2HS + 1TE ;
- 250mm rails Thorax w/ 2MFS + 1TE ;
- HML Caracal w/ 3BCS.
The target is a painted MWDing Thorax with 30° angle trajectory.

The graph.

Notice that if the target is tackled (scram+web+painter), HML apply full dps and become better than all MLRT, at 40km and beyond : here.

To me, that look like well balanced : dps and alpha at range vs lower dps against smaller target ; selectable damage and no tracking vs reduced damage against fast mobing targets.

I don't look at peoples killboards. I'm going off the fact that everything you say regarding missiles is utterly and totally wrong.