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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3561 - 2013-12-21 00:01:40 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

...to kill a vexor with a frigate requires a great deal of skill and the right fit.

No, to kill a frigate with a Vexor.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3562 - 2013-12-21 00:06:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Ah, but you are young Padawan. The cycle of Eve is a long one. What was weak will be strong, what was strong shall be weak. Watch and learn. And keep training.


I hope your right about that but I'm sick trying to make Caldari ships work in pvp its like pushing water up a hill, so unless something changes I'll be gone when my current sub ends in March.


You're talking to a player who persevered with gallente ships during a time when they were by far the worst pvp and pve ships in the game.

I have played Eve for 3 years. I have run a large wormhole alliance and engaged in small skirmish warfare. I have seen the tactics and fashions in PVP change - even when the ships didn't.




If I was playing at that time even as a Caldari role player I would have felt dirty defending over powered weapons knowing other role players were put at such a disadvantage. I wouldn't be championing further nerfs to Gallente doctrines, and I wouldn't have the bare faced cheek to go on the forums and ask for more nerfs which some people in here have done, not you or even Bouh has gone that far but a couple of whiners came in here to cry about light missiles, in a thread where missile players were already hurting, talk about bad taste.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3563 - 2013-12-21 00:32:31 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:

If I was playing at that time even as a Caldari role player I would have felt dirty defending over powered weapons knowing other role players were put at such a disadvantage. I wouldn't be championing further nerfs to Gallente doctrines, and I wouldn't have the bare faced cheek to go on the forums and ask for more nerfs which some people in here have done, not you or even Bouh has gone that far but a couple of whiners came in here to cry about light missiles, in a thread where missile players were already hurting, talk about bad taste.



Some ships, if self repped, are almost impossible to kill solo (applies to all races) - you have to accept that, so you avoid them or take a friend. Practice, watch and learn. Go on SiSi. The more you practice against overwhelming odds, the more times you will win in mortal combat on TQ.

Remember that if a fight seems fair, it's a trap. If it seems like a trap, it's a trap. If you're laying a trap, there's a 50% chance that you're falling into a trap. Once you're in scram range, it's down to luck - and luck is always with the guy with more skills, more money and more will to spend it on ending you. If you don't have gang links, the other guy probably does. If you're not doinf drugs, he probably is. If you don't have an a-type module, he probably has two.

All ships have weaknesses. All have strengths, but the magic of Eve is that ultimately, it all hinges on the pilot. That's you. And believe me, after 3 years of doing this, I am still learning something new about combat every day. Every time I go on SISI I learn a new way to fit or fly a ship form some guy who beats me (and I'm pretty good).

As for people calling for buffs or nerfsm it's just pissing in the wind. CCP devs will ignore that and focus on the data. Words are words. Actions are actions. Get out there, make a plan and turn ships into wrecks. You want caldari ships to be the best? Fly them to their strengths (no, you don' t know them all yet), exploit the weaknesses of others (you have not even scratched the surface). It's down to you.

Fly dangerously

/MC


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#3564 - 2013-12-21 00:47:47 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Remember that if a fight seems fair, it's a trap. If it seems like a trap, it's a trap. If you're laying a trap, there's a 50% chance that you're falling into a trap.




+1 for truth Lol

I wish I had known this 3billion ISK ago
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#3565 - 2013-12-21 00:49:01 UTC
lol @ trying to kill frigs with light drones
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3566 - 2013-12-21 00:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Remember that if a fight seems fair, it's a trap. If it seems like a trap, it's a trap. If you're laying a trap, there's a 50% chance that you're falling into a trap.




+1 for truth Lol

I wish I had known this 3billion ISK ago


Here's a recent example:

2 bombers and a sabre are lying in wait on a hisec WH to gank our industrial (which we have allowed to be seen on d-scan). They drop a bubble and the industrial stops 20km from the hisec wormhole as expected. It's 900dps vs a 5000ehp buffer, right? Prepare to die!

Wait? Why is that industrial shooting back !?! Where did those frigates come from? Why is the industrial able to repair itself? Where the f**k did those other guys come from???

http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/5688/
(Goody Twoshoes is an alt of mine.)

This counter ambush did not happen by itself. It took experience, judgement, planning. We spent about 20 minutes setting it up. We even refitted the industrial in hisec (via a different wormhole) and then came back to trigger the trap. That's how dedicated you have to be to get kills. It's not about luck or good ships, it's about a dedication to the ending of capsuleers lives.

Note that I did not decloak and engage until I knew that the sabre was fully comitted and would not escape my scram. He was incautious, overexcited at the prospect of killing a defenceless badger. He should not have died this day.

Despite all the self-congratulation on my part, there was one pivotal factor in this fight. The other guys made a fundamental error. They did not put a scout on the wormhole I came through. That is why I was able to make the battlefield mine this day. Superior intel.

That's Eve.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#3567 - 2013-12-21 01:24:47 UTC
I think that I should contribute to this thread.

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II are now useless.
I have lost my caracal to 4 frigates today because of the crap reload timer.

Thank you CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise for the amazing RLM rebalance.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3568 - 2013-12-21 01:48:47 UTC
SmarncaV2 wrote:
I think that I should contribute to this thread.

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II are now useless.
I have lost my caracal to 4 frigates today because of the crap reload timer.

Thank you CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise for the amazing RLM rebalance.


You took on 4 frigates solo and expected to survive? You don't give types etc. If they were ishkurs you'd have been facing 1000dps.

How did you expect not to lose your ship?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3569 - 2013-12-21 01:58:28 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You took on 4 frigates solo and expected to survive? You don't give types etc. If they were ishkurs you'd have been facing 1000dps. How did you expect not to lose your ship?

I don't think it's necessarily implied that he took on 4 frigates, but rather - found himself in an engagement with 4 frigates. I'm guessing he wasn't able to kill even one.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3570 - 2013-12-21 02:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You took on 4 frigates solo and expected to survive? You don't give types etc. If they were ishkurs you'd have been facing 1000dps. How did you expect not to lose your ship?

I don't think it's necessarily implied that he took on 4 frigates, but rather - found himself in an engagement with 4 frigates. I'm guessing he wasn't able to kill even one.


ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

Bear in mind that 5.6 of those seconds (assuming he has perfect reaction times) are spent locking the first target.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3571 - 2013-12-21 02:11:35 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3572 - 2013-12-21 02:23:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.


I think before we can quantify how many frigates should have died we need more data. We don't know his fit, his skills, how much damage he had already taken, whether he remembered his damage control... And so on.

For my money, if I was in a squad of 4 frigates, properly fitted, I would expect to win an encounter against a lone t1 cruiser.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#3573 - 2013-12-21 02:25:50 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.


I think before we can quantify how many frigates should have died we need more data. We don't know his fit, his skills, how much damage he had already taken, whether he remembered his damage control... And so on.

For my money, if I was in a squad of 4 frigates, properly fitted, I would expect to win an encounter against a lone t1 cruiser.

It could have been a squad of 4 Ibis's, he fitted rockets and brought LMs and forgot how to hit warp. We don't know. But I think that Arthur has a little bit of a point in saying that a Caracal should be able to take out at least 1 frigate before going down.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3574 - 2013-12-21 02:29:29 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.


I think before we can quantify how many frigates should have died we need more data. We don't know his fit, his skills, how much damage he had already taken, whether he remembered his damage control... And so on.

For my money, if I was in a squad of 4 frigates, properly fitted, I would expect to win an encounter against a lone t1 cruiser.

It could have been a squad of 4 Ibis's, he fitted rockets and brought LMs and forgot how to hit warp. We don't know. But I think that Arthur has a little bit of a point in saying that a Caracal should be able to take out at least 1 frigate before going down.


Respectfully, he might have a point if we had some concrete data and the data led to that conclusion. At the moment all we have is one exasperated guy who lost a ship. We know nothing beyond that. This is not a sufficiently strong position to justify changing game mechanics.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3575 - 2013-12-21 02:38:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.


Well, let's say that each frigate has 3000 ehp plus a self rep module (100 dps of damage mitigation). Let's say they are orbiting at 300 m/s (or 700 with AB). Now we can do some maths. I don't think it's unreasonable for the caracal to take more than 30 seconds to kill each one. I think any cruiser with the exception of a vigilant would be lucky to kill them that fast.

The cruiser will most likely be webbed at least twice. He's a sitting duck.

My money is on the frigates

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3576 - 2013-12-21 02:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
It could have been a squad of 4 Ibis's, he fitted rockets and brought LMs and forgot how to hit warp. We don't know. But I think that Arthur has a little bit of a point in saying that a Caracal should be able to take out at least 1 frigate before going down.

That was my point, yes.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Respectfully, he might have a point if we had some concrete data and the data led to that conclusion. At the moment all we have is one exasperated guy who lost a ship. We know nothing beyond that. This is not a sufficiently strong position to justify changing game mechanics.

Respectfully, he does have a point. I took on three frigates with a Tengu not that long ago and only managed to get one of them because I lucked out with the right ammunition choice. Even with the range lmitations, I'd have been further ahead with HAMs. Since we're all tired of losing ships, maybe a few of us should get together for a friendly engagement to prove or disprove this?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3577 - 2013-12-21 03:57:30 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Coraxes are awful in every way except looks. Even the overpoweredness of light missiles does not make up for the corax's badness.
Until recently I was building Destroyers and finally ended up selling the last 40 corax's at below cost, just to save re-listing them, 3 months later.
All others sold out within a couple of weeks, out of a batch of 50 Corax's I sold 10 at a profit.

Don't know if that is a good indication as to how bad corax's are or simply how much better the other destroyers are in comparison.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3578 - 2013-12-21 04:21:34 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
ok, but let's take a hypothetical situation in which everyone concerned has skills to V. The frigates are all able to deliver an overheated 250dps (assume gallente gank fit) and the caracal has ~30k ehp. Not in any way a remarkable situation.

If the caracal does not shoot, he's going to die in 30 seconds. If he kills one frigate after 20 seconds, he's going to die in 20 + (30,000 - 20,000) / 750 = 33.3 seconds.

In this situation no matter what weapon system he had fitted, he's dead.

Even if the frigates are pushing out 150dps he's in trouble if they know how to maintain speed to mitigate damage.

It's not quite as simple as the raw numbers, because we don't know how much (or if) any damage he would be able to mitigate. But hypothetically-speaking, he should've been able to kill at least one frigate - possibly two. If he couldn't even manage that, I think that speaks volumes about RLMLs.


I think it speaks volumes about the fit. It could have been a triple stabbed caracal with no bcu's for all we know. So no damage bonuses or hull bonus for rlml. Without knowing the details we can't determine if its poor fit, pilot, weapon system or any combination of the 3.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3579 - 2013-12-21 04:31:22 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I think it speaks volumes about the fit. It could have been a triple stabbed caracal with no bcu's for all we know. So no damage bonuses or hull bonus for rlml. Without knowing the details we can't determine if its poor fit, pilot, weapon system or any combination of the 3.

I know that some of you are really hoping RLMLs don't suck... I hate to be the one to break it to you, but regardless of fit - they do. The deal-breaker is quite literally the 40-second reload.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3580 - 2013-12-21 05:05:05 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

That's the thing I find so perplexing. RLMLs have been around for years yet they weren't dominating small gang and solo PVP on some massive scale.


Incorrect on 2 counts:
* They've been around for months.
* CCP's data suggested strongly that they were indeed dominating.


I wonder if the rise in RLML use began to appear after a major nerf to HM ?

So now; we have HM in a bad place and RLML in a niche place, leaving Caldari missile pilots with little to no choice.

Give back the old RLML with reduced capacity, 10 second reload and the 15-20% damage reduction mentioned in your post;
Quote:
CCP Rise
Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade
I don't want a weapon system with "advantage in trade" I want to use missiles the same way turret users do, IE; as I choose, not how CCP says.

RLML you have choices with; different damage types and ranges but all with 40 seconds downtime every 45 seconds = limited options on how the weapon is used = not fun for a lot of players.

Quote:
CCP Rise
This was motivated by the knowledge that if we simply lowered their damage output to achieve the first goal, they would be left feeling very unexciting even though they would still have value against small support.
I would rather have a weapon system balanced for sustained DPS, than a high DPS weapon with such limited usability.

Give missile users a choice - lower sustained DPS or the burst mechanic.

Official interest in this thread probably lapsed some 30 or 40 pages ago.
Regardless this is what 1 selfish missile pilot would like to see happen.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.