Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I completely agree. bang for buck, where the target is helpless and not shooting back the catalyst is the gank platform of choice. However, this thread is about RLMLs and their suitability for task.

And my position is that RLMLs have been invented in error because there was already a weapons system suitable for the job - that of destroying frigates. Namely, the destroyer.

Using an oversized ship on an undersized weapons platform confers a certain safety margin, in excess EHP over an equivalent destroyer. The cost of that safety is in ganking power (at least of frigates).

That seems reasonable to me.

If you *really* want to destroy frigates the tool of choice is the destroyer (or some of them). Using RLMLs on a cruiser should not be as effective. It seems to me, all things considered, that the weapon system is working as intended.

The corax trades range versatility for dps. Whether or not this is a good trade is up to each capsuleer. If not, it's only a week or so to cross train.

Coraxes are awful in every way except looks. Even the overpoweredness of light missiles does not make up for the corax's badness.

myabe off topic but the Talwar is better than the Corax in nearly every way, yet the Thrasher is still far more popular than the Talwar, that says a lot about where the Corax stands in the over all scheme of things.

The Talwar can fit a better tank than the Corax because it has more powergrid for shield upgrades and 3 low slots allowing for more fitting upgrades or a damage control unit without sacrificing dps. It says that most players seem to prefer better ships, the only reason to fly a Corax is if you're a role player and your trying to stick with your chosen races ships wherever possible. I have been down this road with other players before don't even try to argue that the Corax is anything more than a gimped Talwar its slower has lower scan res bigger sig radius and worse fitting options. The fact that the Thrasher is in turn preferred over the Talwar just goes to show that light missiles are not as OP as some people would have us believe, or the opposite would be true.

I'm not sure I understand you. I am not saying that a talwar and caracal are in any way equivalent. I am saying that a destroyer is a more natural hull for the job of destroying frigates.

I am also saying that to cross-train from a caldari destroyer to a minmatar one (if that is what one desires) is a trivial operation in terms of skill training times.

What have I misunderstood?

The issue is that CCP created the RLML system, and so they need to find a useful place for it. Balancing it against a sub-par destroyer that is pretty much never used is not going to get it there. Also the Talwar example you provided is moot because you are switching to brawling/tackle range with rockets which is the opposite of the style of a RLML Caracal or a LM Corax.

CCP's position is that RLMLs were crowding out HMLs. That is, a missile system designed for killing frigates was being chosen by pilots to kill cruisers over cruiser-specific weapons. That led them to conclude that the RLML weapon system was flawed (in that it was providing opportunities beyond its design).

So they have changed it in order to try to ensure it is good only at its intended function.

If RLMLs are no longer any good at killing cruisers, that is probably as it was intended to be. If they're no good at killing frigates, that's different matter.

Because that obsoleted a class of ship (destroyers) and prevent too classes of ships to land on field in presence of an RLML ship (frigates and destroyers) without making your ship useless against cruisers. Old RLML were the ultimate frigate interdiction weapon and had no counter available for frigates.

Drones can be killed and have limited dps ; medium and large turrets can be avoided, either out of ranged or outtracked ; old RLML Caracal was a 120km sphere of death for frigates.

The dps on RLML meant that it was only ever strong against frigates, even with furies getting 266dps was weak by cruiser standards. I'm sure there are situations where RLML Caracals could get under a long range cruisers guns and avoid damage, or kite a blaster, but that's tactics and the same tactics are available to any cruiser; so nerfing the dps and adding a ridiculous reload time hasn't changed that.

Nobody who knows what they're doing will be choosing HML's over RLML for pvp, not now not ever, if they remove RLML from the game people will still not use HML's for anything in pvp, if they remove HAM's people will simply stop using Heavy missiles altogether in pvp, I think you know this already. They are good enough for missions if you don't mind spending ages waiting for things to die, because you can always warp out and back in when you need to, but you don't have that luxury in pvp.