Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm going to assume you're killing these ships with an alt right?

Lets discuss the on paper 1441 paper dps? Sounds great doesn't it. Its those sort of numbers that Typhoon pilots have been talking about since I started playing this game, not really accounting for the fact Torpedos hit terribly, Ogres are slow, and Autocannons mostly work in falloff.

First off, if you use Fury's (Rages are for HAM's, torps etc) for the RHML, then you absolutely must pick the right HAC to fight against - and he must be stupid enough not to shoot your drones while you're doing nothing, where I fly, those are often the first things to get targeted.

It's all about slowly declawing your opponent like the bad kitty he is.

Right now I've been testing a Vagabond to take out with a couple of friends.

Against your Typhoon - first off it out runs the Ogres, and as I said, I would shoot them either way, and happily shoot your spare medium and smalls.

If you can't web me, the Vagabond only takes a 103 DPS off the missiles. That is before resists. After resists (I'll be overloading for the start of the fight) that means you can hit me for 29 DPS a second. For 50 seconds.

How is that paper DPS looking?

But you do have a MWD - and if I do fit a AB Vagabond, then, I'll be honest - you're going to catch it.

Things change dramatically now, but please remember - the first thing I do after I've pointed you back - is shoot your drones - all you have left now are your missiles.

You've got me webbed. Pointed. Cap draining me.

That leaves you doing 231 DPS - that is what you will hit a Vagabond for.

After resists (again assuming you're using the best possible missile against me) means you're real damage is 64 DPS.

Now, the kicker here of course is that I'm being cap drained. And that is the real bummer here.

This is a pain. My invul will go off, as will my AB. But I can still tank you happily with the ASB fit.

Your DPS now: 542 DPS. After resists that is 238 DPS.

Want to know what the tank on the Vagabond is? 1141 hp a second- that is with no invul, no implants and no blue pill.

All of these numbers are for your 50 seconds of ammo. For 40 seconds you're not even doing any damage at all.

Now sure - I'll eventually have to reload the ASB, but I'll do that while you're not shooting for 40 seconds, giving me 20 seconds of down time where i'll rely on my shield buffer briefly and then I'm all set again.

You better hope I don't have friends - because its going to take a damn long time to kill me. You might even run out of ammo if you're rammed full of 800 cap boosters.

Now. If you brought that Raven I mentioned earlier - it will hit my poor little Vagabond for 600 DPS. And it doesn't need to reload for 40 seconds - allowing you to find my worst resist. So it does more damage. Doesn't have to reload every 50 seconds. And it has a Heavy Cap drain that reaches twice as far as your Typhoon's do and does the same cap drain.

Yet you still think the RHML is better?

I've been thinking about this line CCP Rise.

The fact you think this thread is bizarre, I think says a lot about the whole way you've approached this thread from day one.

When people gave you negative feedback on the new SoE battleship you designed, saying it needed a range bonus to the large reps - you went - okay - and gave it to them (It looks fun btw)

When people told you 40 seconds reload time is truly awful for so many reasons - you didn't answer for a long, long time, then said there was no constructive negative feedback and so you were leaving it as it was.

Since then , we've given you pages and pages of detailed explanation's of how this stuff works. We've had to deal with every Gallente FW troll saying Missiles are overpowered - and shown time and time again how that simply isn't true.

You have to appreciate, many of the users of missiles here are not unsurprisingly Caldari pilots. I've had pilots e-mail me after reading this thread - here is a real quote from a player who contacted me in this game:



Add that to the countless others in this thread saying similar things as well as a new rage thread on missiles kicking off on these forums, and it is all painting a very clear picture of underlying sentiments.

I'm against making missiles OP. I'm not suggesting that, but what I am suggest is, they simply don't work anything like as well as you think they do, and given the choice between taking out a gun boat or a missile boat - you'd be mad to fly missiles.

Meanwhile, what I dislike about modules with really long reload timers (ASB, AAR, RLML) is that I never know how long the reload is going to take from a certain point. 30 seconds still? 15?
I sometimes look at my crimewatch timers when I start reloading to have an idea. So for me THAT is the unfun part.

Could reloading in general maybe get a circular progress bar like module activation has? (color/blinking to tell apart from activation)

But time to write long replies here? Curious. Don't worry, eventually I'll be bothered to make a video or something instead.




A Thorax with 250mm Rails in and no mods at all can reach 71 km and do 169 DPS with Spike Ammo.

A Caracal with Heavy Missiles in and Fury's will reach 70km and do 202 DPS

Factions in, I grant you, I can reach further, but now DPS is 172 and reach 94 KM. But it takes a while to get there... and we all know how well Heavy Missile hit don't we?

And you could always fit a Tracking Computer, Or Tracking Enhancers Or Rigs on your Thorax. And don't forget the Caracal is getting a 50% range bonus.

If I were to make it fair and give the missiles to an unbonused missile cruiser so we are like for like here, the Bellicose - then it can only reach 63 KM with Faction in, and just 47 with Fury. So yeah, an unbonused Rail ship easily out reaches missiles. The Bellicose only does 162 on Paper DPS with Heavy Fury's in, compared to the Thorax with Ammo in for that range doing 170 - that is without drones of course.

So yes - Rails reach further than Missiles - even on ships without a range bonus.

Next.



Yes, Lasers are terrible at tracking close range, but only if you orbit with them. If you stop - or move towards or away from a target, they will do close to full damage.

The range of Pulse's is well known. That is why they are so popular on battleships.

As shown - with Rails - the Thorax does more damage than the missiles - albeit with having the right ammo loaded and being affected by transversal. But again, Heavy Missiles we know only hit for around 50% of their actual DPS without target painting, and at long range target painting is dramatically reduced. Once you hit the 45km range and into falloff they don't really add much. Rails on the other hand... well, you can make those more effective in a number of ways.

So yes, Rails do more DPS than Missiles.

Next.



Duh - thats why you have mid slots free to control the fight. The Thorax is so good at this its hilarious, and it utterly wastes a perfect tank Incursus in seconds at 5km and Javelins in.

If you want to use Blasters and not use webs - there is your solution right there and DPS and tracking close range increases dramatically.

Next.

Erm, it won't let me quote anymore but... but yes...

As for Null being OP, I'm not sure they are over buffed - the range on them is terrible - and I agree that for years Gallente sucked. CCP changed all that though for two of the years you've been playing, when they released Crucible. Not only did they buff hybrids, they nerfed missiles (dramatically) and all ship balancing has made Gallente far more agile than before, so they are very good with a MWD. With the mid slots they can control fights more, and against the ships you come across more often in FW - Caldari ships - they hit those big fat signatures happily.

I appreciate why you're flying Gallente ships in FW, I've been on both sides of the fence in FW and FC'd gangs as large as 70+ ships in system defences before now, I've also flown under Tekitha when Drunk and Disorderly were still around, albeit after they left FW - my corp was one of the few set to -10 by them I found out after we joined them, so we must have been doing something right in FW. The reason Gallente won the war was they were better organised. By a big margin. I remember one system defence, they cyno'd in prefit cruisers to replace losses - trust me Caldari never even got close to that sort of level of organisation and the infighting was hilarious - several Caldari corps in FW were at war with each other.

But I also think the ships involved are far better for Gallente to defend plex's with. They can camp a button / entrance and bring enough EHP and logistics in to make it very hard to break them. I've tried to counter Thorax's with Moas - with the signature / cap / DPS issues, they struggle to compete. That was before the resist nerf. I can't imagine having less resistance has made them any better!

But you do organise gangs consisting of webless ABing cruisers? Because that's what you've given us numbers for.

Seriously, what is this? Are webless ABing cruisers the mainstay of FW? These fits look crazy to me. Why would you insist on using HAMs without web support when you know how much they benefit from webs, both in terms of range control and damage application?

Give us realistic numbers or none at all.

Reading Rise's rational for the change in rapid missile launchers, the change seems sensible to me. RLMLs are anti-frigate measures pure and simple. Like putting small blasters on an ishtar (which I do).

RHMLs are anti-cruiser countermeasures. Although to be honest, my experience is that cruise missiles coupled with a target painter are extremely effective against cruisers too.

We find HAMs very effective when mounted to our sacrileges (with web and scram).

Heavy missiles are no longer OP. They deliver consistent medium damage of any type at any range from point-blank to long-medium. This is something no gunnery system can do, so in my view they have a very real role when used in a squad. I don't see them as useful in 1v1 encounters, but that's not unusual in Eve.

Nothing in the current iteration of missiles would cause me to deter a new pilot in our corp from training missile skills.

I would however, encourage him to keep one ship fitted with RLMLs, one with HAM and one with HM so that he could pick the right ship to counter the right threat.

On the subject of cruise missiles, the recent buff took them well into the realm of OPness. I think the reason we don't see large fleets of them has more to do with inertia than facts.

I would encourage everyone here to log on to sisi with a pair of cruise-fitted ravens with a couple of target painters each. Laugh as you destroy HAC after HAC before they can get anywhere near you, or even align to warp out.

Love the way people who only use turrets and drones talk about the "OPness" of missiles. Of course the reason people dont use them in game is because they don't understand how OP they are, yeah sure

EDIT: looking at your kill board Gallente and Minmattar the only two races you fly... both considered to be the most unquestionably OP races in the game, and it's pretty transparent that the only reason people like you and Bouh and high waisted trouseryness stick your heads in these threads is to draw attention away from that fact.

I'd heard that 250mm rail tengus are currently a popular null doctrine, I hadn't heard about the HAM one.

Well this is my only toon, I am a Caldari role player in faction war and I want to use Caldari ships, we don't need any more broken weapon systems thanks. Raven is good at long range, but not all fights start at long range, you cannot expect your ships to be superior at both long range and short range and call that balance. Turrets have incredible dps in short range engagements, and if you know what your doing it's possible to ensure most of your pvp takes place at that range, long range turrets should not have equal ability with missiles to project dps, they have high alpha and instant dps which means they can be used to devastating effect camping stations, gates, and plexes, and in large fleet battles and incursions... this means that even if they had far less sustained dps they would still see a huge amount of use. Missiles need a role too, and in order to have a role they need to be better at it than the other options why can't you understand that? Just because your not able to MWD up to every ship in the game and melt it with your blasters doesn't mean it's OP.

You know, when someone shows up, who doesn't use missiles, to tell me how they're in great shape I just have to agree. Your logic is infallible.
I, as a missile pilot, personally think that all projectiles are OP because they insta-hit. I don't use them, but I've read some descriptions and forum posts so my opinion is pretty solid.

Is this really the kind of stupid we have sunk to in here?