Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Moonaura's math just blew my mind. There's no way to justify these systems if it's accurate.

The numbers are based on what EFT is showing and EFT is not perfect, nor is it EVE.

Consider for example that EFT is NOT accurate with guns. It simply can't be, because some of the mechanisms for gunnery are not known by the players and hidden in the code of EVE - a complete mystery - for example what are the mechanics that judge if a gun crits or misses - nobody knows except CCP - which is a good thing to prevent exploits.

So, when it comes to guns at least, EFT is good at showing its best guess and averages based on what can be extracted from tests in the game, but it is not the same as doing actual tests on SISI or Tranquility.

When it comes to the missile mechanics however - these are a known and exact quantity because they don't crit, and they don't miss and are not affected by transversal mechanics. So EFT models these, essentially nearly identically to the game.

I promise you, if you fit Cruise Missiles - those are the realistic DPS you will get - obviously your targets resistances and speed / signature dictate how they perform in the game of course.

I have known about the limitations of HAM's for a long time. Ideally (and it wasn't always possible) all my Missile gangs used HAM's and used a Bellicose to support them. I stopped using Heavy Missiles immediately after Crucible. Only with a Bellicose and webs will you really get HAM's to work anything like their potential, absolutely that is the case with Fury's in.

The Cruise missiles have been buffed significantly, and as result now are more effective than the Cruiser alternatives. There was a video I found of a Cruise raven killing frigates for real in the game... without points on them, just kiting them and a TP - I will dig it out.

Regarding the gunnery numbers. Its hard to tell exactly, I talked about Peak numbers. But gunnery is much more sensitive to range and transversal mechanics. Its like a magic soup and you can't really point at EFT as being accurate with its gun numbers. Essentially its a best guess. But it isn't far off either and its averaging expected outcomes.

What is clear, is that if you bring a gun boat, realistically, if your pilots know their ammo ranges, then you will be a far more effective in a small gang. And typically you'll have more mid slots free across the gang, to make sure you dictate the fight and get the best out of them. You don't have to worry about a 40 second reload time either.

If you're in, say a 7 man Thorax gang, vs say, a 7 man Caracal gang, you're going to be a brave gambler if you bet on the Caracal's coming out top of that engagement. The Thorax's can dual prop - move faster and - close range, scram you, web you, and hit you for anything from 300 - 600 DPS depending on their fits, then switch to AB.

At a gate, it would be foolhardy perhaps for an FC to chase a kiting fit set of Caracal's, but a rail fit Thorax will happily hit A Caracal at HAM range, and even can reach to the ranges of Heavy Missiles - which as shown - are terrible. In faction warfare - where Thorax's can camp an entrance - its utter carnage.

The only thing Caldari can counter with are Moa's - a ship that does less DPS, and has an even larger signature when EHP fit, than the Caracal I used in the previous posts.

I've tried. They don't work. With Rails in, they don't do enough damage, and the range bonus is pointless. With Blasters in they can reach to 11km or so, but really have to MWD around the field to get in range. All the while with signature sizes like a small moon. That was before they nerfed their resistance bonuses. I dread to think how badly they perform now in Faction Warfare engagements.

CCP Rise said he uses EFT, and I'm sure CCP Fozzie does too.

Its a tough one to get right, but Heavy Missiles in particular are extremely poor. The RLML is now entirely situational and does 20% less DPS overall, and cannot change ammo for a fight properly. That leaves HAM's. And yeah... as good as they are - and they are the best we've got - you'd be nuts to train for those if you can use guns instead.

Edit: Here is the Raven video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=faFt86AzYzM

I don't think the pilots he's up against are particular smart here, but hey, that happens a lot. The Cruise missiles have a lot of alpha, so surprise people when they hit.

This is a Raven I would try, but my Caldari focused alt never bothered with Cruise Missiles before, because they were terrible in PvP before the changes. Right now I'm finishing off his armor, and he already has Gallente boats and Hybrid guns (For the Gila and Moa etc) so I will start to solo roam with him in Gallente once he's done.

[Raven, Laughable Anti-Frigate Raven]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Target Painter II
Stasis Webifier II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller II

Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

If it can web a Frigate, say an AB fit Incursus - well it will hit those for 220 DPS outside of web range its 150 or so. But the kick is in the alpha. 4021 per volley. Ouch. Oh and the reason I fit it with these Sensor Boosters is that it can lock a Frigate in the same time as the Caracal.

Overall, this is not quite the same DPS as say, a Caracal with the RLML in burst mode, but it IS more DPS overall than a Caracal when you take into account the 40 second reload and overall 20% DPS drop from before.

I imagine if you are happy to drop the lock on time and find some gullible Frigate gang, you could easily increase the DPS to 300+ against frigates - more than enough to pop those.

Looks fun, but I can't test it. Against a Stabber for example, DPS jumps to 700 or so, so its also far better than the RHML.

Seems cruise missiles are actually in a good spot for PvP. Actually applies frigate dps to frigates.
Wouldn't that fit benefit from 1 Drone damage augmentation thingy? Medium drones with a painter and web don't seem too wrong at such close ranges.

Apparently 250mm rails are doing well on the Tengu. Guess those will be nerfed next...

Another consideration is to run a Signal Amplifier II in a low slot, thus freeing up a mid slot for something else.

Too bad heavy missiles suck against cruisers...

I beg to differ. I've been agreeing with your posts for the most part, but i've run a few sets of graphs, with identical fit typhoon FI, fit with RHML and cruises.

Now, i'm going to add a disclaimer here, i use RHML as strictly the damage done in the clip. I don't factor in reloads, as i feel, its a different play style. I'm hunting for things that the RHML and fit is setup to kill within the reload. So, for my own personal fit, i hunt HACs and cruisers. Maybe a BS if i'm confident i can tank him. But, if he has help, then no.

The difference on my fits between cruise and RHML are only tank and cruise has rigor rig instead of tank.

[Typhoon Fleet Issue, RHML]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-Explosive Pump II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5
Ogre II x5

That is my own personal fit. Breif Stats:
Missile Only DPS: 814 using faction ammo, 709 with precisions

Typhoon with cruise missiles:
Missile only: 710 using faction and 617 with precisions


Against a vagabond, no LSE, dual LASB and shield rigs. MWD off is 126m sig (same as stabber without rigs/LSE) The MWD is off due to the scram. (when i fly, i only launch missiles when target has been hard tackled, not going to waste missiles.)

With ONLY scram/web, no weapon rigs or crash booster. EFT is showing 760 DPS (a drop of 44 dps)
If you want to fit precision missiles, then i hit for the exact amount i'm supposed, 709 DPS (0 dps drop), which is pointless, unless he's outside web range, but then again i wouldn't be shooting missiles.

With same fit, but with an additional rigor rig and with cruises i'm getting 305 DPS (405 dps drop)
w/ precision, you're getting 363 dps (229 DPS drop)

If you want to bring reload time into it. The RHML get 436, and the cruise get 293 as per EFT DPS graph, on the same target. So, no, RHML are not useless, and are not surpassed by cruise missiles when dealing damage to cruisers.

While testing on SiSi, I've killed Sac's,vaga's, deimos, ishtar with that above fit with RHML. I killed a dual rep deimos in 7 volleys, because the volley would bleed his structure, and i was hitting his explo hole. The neuts also may have helped.. but again, i fit for the task at hand, and that has no affect on how the missiles hit. This is why a damage bonus is always better than a RoF bonus for RHML.

I'm all for buffing heavies a bit, but don't make them look worse than what they really are. Using rage/furies in your examples is not ideal, as those are for larger/slower moving targets. Like i would only use rages against a BS or BC.

40s reload time is fine. I would prefer 35s or 30s but ok.
25 ammo in the Light and 30 ammo would be better because you are not always able to web and target paint your target.

And it would be interestening to adjust the Explosion velocity and the Explosion radius of the missiles.

No, the 40-second reload is not fine. It doesn't work in PvE and you only have to last 40-50 seconds against an opponent that uses RLMLs or RHMLs in PvP. After that, if he can't disengage or call in reinforcements in - he's dead.


It's an interesting fit, to be sure - so kudos on the creativity. I'd love to have a friendly dual with you sometime - I'll bring a Navy Raven with cruise missiles and we can put your RHMLs to the test.