Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I honestly thought that they were going to suck.
Then I start using them and frankly, they're pretty awesome.
40s reload is a bit much, however they're very useable in their current state.
I recently lost a RHML 'phoon in lowsec to a harbinger, vexor, and augoror multiboxer but I'm sure that if I had approached the fight differently I would have been able to win it.

By flying something that didn't use missiles and didn't stop shooting for 40 seconds? lol

Would it be possible that we could have hull bonuses that grant +5% per level to RoF also apply the same bonus to reload time?

As it stands, the reduced clip size and 40sec reload time significantly impacts the efficacy of RoF bonuses.

What should nominally be a +33% DPS increase from a full 5 levels of +5% RoF skill equates to an actual bonus of 18% when using rapid launchers and factoring reload times.

This also results in the RoF bonus-related skills loosing potency as well.



Granted this is a shared concern of all platforms baring a RoF bonus (save lasers), but most other weapon systems hold upwards of 100+ rounds.

No, it's actually a 23% DPS hit when using rapid light launchers over the previous version - even with the burst.

You can see it on the first page of his killboard. I'd post it but :rules:

Point being he used a navy battleship with a weapon system designed for killing cruisers to kill an apparently pve fitted rlml caracal. Colour me completely shocked and surprised

Perhaps we should also reconsider the over or under poweredness of RLML based on their ability to kill afk cyno noobships.

Let me demonstrate why using RHML was the poor choice to begin with in a Typhoon.

The missile mechanics in EFT are accurate, so load that in to see some simple, obvious comparisons.

Looking at a Typhoon with three BCU and RHML can do a Peak DPS on paper of 927 DPS with Rages loaded.

Sounds impressive right? That is what you will get for 50 seconds. On average the overall DPS accounting for 40 second reload is just 504 DPS.

But lets just focus on that large peak burst damage for now. At this point none of the cruisers we're adding have any prop mods.

Now load in a typical - large signature Caracal into the DPS graph tool. Add in Thorax, and add in a Stabber.

Set them to typical orbits, so 70% speed and moving across each other etc.

And lets see what we 'really' get for those 50 seconds - against relatively slow cruisers - that the missile is designed to hit.

Against the Caracal - the missiles do 474 DPS.

Wow. Just wow.

That is almost half the DPS the Paper DPS suggests!

Against the Thorax 338.

Against the Stabber 216.

This is without any AB at all.

If this doesn't seem nuts yet - it gets better!

Now load in a Typhoon with Cruise missiles with Precisions - so it can hit Cruisers. On paper DPS 567 DPS. A distinct drop for sure, but you get far more range, and you do not get a 40 second reload.

What do those hit for?

Against the Caracal, 401 DPS

Against the Thorax, 302 DPS

Against the Stabber, 208 DPS.

In other words - Without ANY 40 second reload you hit for MORE DPS even without a Burst mode mechanic against everything except the stabber, which is only 8 DPS less.

If you take into account the 40 second reload, want to know what your actual 130 second DPS average is on the RHML?

Against the Caracal, 258 DPS

Against the Thorax, 184 DPS

Against the Stabber 117 DPS.

Let me make it very simple for you - RHML are not worth the ISK you spend on them. In all cases - investing in Cruise missiles make absolute sense. There is no 40 second reload. You can switch to the ideal missile and damage type against any target - and combine that with the ability to fill a Typhoon's mid slots with prop mods, webs and TP, then the Typhoon will consistently out DPS the RHML by a factor of 2x - even against cruisers. Against Battleships it is even better.

If you fly the right gun ship - you can probably increase the realistic DPS by another factor against cruisers again. The only thing guns will struggle against is the Stabber - even when its webbed and TP there is a decent DPS drop - but the same is true for missiles.

End result: Reroll Gallente and wonder why you weren't using Hybrids already.

But I'm not finished.

Lets be kind, and say you spend the 40 seconds to reload your RHML with T2 Precisions - the Heavy Missiles designed to hit fast cruisers. As expected, things improve. But I'm also going to be kind and fit an AB to the cruisers - which is not unrealistic if its a brawl fit.

Here are the laughable DPS numbers:

Caracal: 212 DPS
Thorax: 148 DPS
Stabber: 95 DPS

That is with Precision Missiles in - with peak Burst mode damage. Does your Battleship fit feel worth the 200m you spent on it now? Most frigates will do more DPS.

Hmmm those 957 epic battleships seem somehow... pointless now huh?

I hope CCP are starting to understand why this thread is as many pages as it is now. Many of the missiles in the game are broken. You've broken them more.

You suggest this is fair. I suggest any pilot, who runs the numbers, and knows how to fly his ship - will not use Missiles.

You also nerfed an entire race's resistance bonus - on the argument it was too powerful - yet here you can see those same ships - take more damage than any other race.

Yee gods.

James, save yourself some ISK, just look at what the missiles you're firing actually hit for. Paper DPS is not actual DPS - especially when it comes to the Heavy Missile - a missile CCP nerfed in every possible way - DPS - Range and its hit Mechanics. Its good to remove the Drake blobs from the game. But if ever something was over nerfed, the Heavy Missile was it. Its useless. Utterly useless. And anything that fires them, whether they be a Heavy Launcher or a RHML is therefore utterly useless. If you fit a Battleship with anything other than Cruiser missiles - you are wasting your time.

Cruise Missiles kill Cruisers better. There is no instance where the RHML is better none - its actual DPS is less than the Cruise Missiles, even in burst mode.

If you fit Webs and TP to your Typhoon, your Cruise missiles will do close to their peak DPS against cruisers, without a 40 second reload. Its nuts to think you can even make RHML work, when Cruises are doing twice the DPS over a 2 minute period. The only mistake you made with your Typhoon engagement - wasn't what to cap drain or target first - it was undocking in a RHML fit ship.

Well... about the HAM's lol....

Lets see what those puppies do against those same Cruiser targets huh?

Against the AB fit Cruisers - the ships they are designed to hit a three BCU Caracal with HAM's and Faction Missiles (The best ones for hitting targets with) - On Paper DPS: 395 DPS (Oh dear)

Against another Caracal: 230 DPS

Against the Thorax: 161 DPS .... ahahahahahahahahahaha

Against the Stabber: 103 DPS ..... muhahahahahaha

WTF!!!!

Okay... I'm being unkind, lets really ramp up the DPS and use Rage missiles! Peak DPS now up to 464 DPS over 25km.

Against another Caracal: 140 DPS.... ahahahahahahahahha

Against the Thorax: 96 DPS.... oh dear, I think I just hurt myself...

Against the Stabber: 61 DPS.

Epic. Just Epic.

Yes the HAM is what we are left with.

Or maybe... just maybe - Screw Missiles.

Lets add a Rail Fit Thorax and its Drones against those same ships for old times sake and see why Missiles are utterly... utterly pointless for Cruisers. Because people moan if I don't fit a tank - the Thorax only has a single DPS module in the lows.

Against the Caracal, it does 329 DPS

Against another Thorax, it does 263 DPS

Against a stabber 222 DPS.

Now - the caveat, is of course, that it doesn't always hit like that and some of the DPS is drone based. But consider I'm on a tight one vs one orbit here. In a small gang, flown and fit properly, a thorax will consistently do twice almost twice DPS of the HAM's.

Once more, this is why all my future gangs I'm arranging don't use missiles, and are not Caldari.

Yeah, you get to watch them fly to their targets nicely, before you melt under a wave of Hybrid gun fire.

I appreciate that gunnery is much trickier and occasionally, potentially vulnerable to TD - but in a small gang - unless you come up against a pair of sentinels or something, TD isn't going to a decisive factor in a fight.

If you add webbing and TP into the figures, then yes - the HAM's improve - and yes - Missiles are very good at reaching further and applying consistent damage, but they simply can't reach the same damage levels when it really matters.

Very few fights take place at your ideal ranges - most fights end up being close range, at which point, the missiles lose their advantage, and even if they can keep their range, you have to count in things like time to target, having a bearing on the dynamics of the engagement (Short answer: Gun fit gangs can be more efficient by switching to new targets faster, as Missile gangs have to wait to see if their last volley hits and kills its target).

Put quite simply, gunnery is much stronger, and combined with those e-war bonuses, is more effective. A Thorax can offer to deliver almost twice the DPS, with a Rail boat - and not even the largest Rail guns fit. Tie that into the fact that most gun ships have more mid slots to play with, and its not a pretty combination.

A good small gang FC will train his pilots and ask his pilots to bring gun ships. If he doesn't, his gang is weaker, and in small gangs, small differences can mean you either break a logistics ships tank, or you can't. Entire engagements are won on lost on such things.