Player Features and Ideas Discussion

-RIP -

Rapid Light Missile Launcher

No one uses them anymore HAHAHAHAHA i bet you didnt see that coming Rise you Dumbfuk

I would use HM or HAM to kill cruisers similar to this but with maybe 1 or no tps. Prob keep the rigors for fast moving cruisers though and then use the extra slots for tank. My scyfi does 336dps with current fit, the scyfi is better suited for HML because of alpha.gets up to 1200-1300 per volley. Belli is like 240 I think with x2 bcu. But I wouldn't use belli to kill cruisers. Tp bonus is actually useful for killin frigs.

I would only use hams with either large buffer or active tanked, or dual prop.

Also as a note, the scyfi can reach 4k/s with OH without links/boosters/implants. Just need 2 nanos. Not many other cruisers can go that fast. So they could try and run, but I don't think they'll get away unless I screw up.

Yes, but that still doesn't fix RLMLs unfortunately...

Ok, so i fit up a caracal and compared.

The only difference between the Caracal and Bellicose (comparable priced equivalent) is that i'm using HAM's on the caracal due to its velocity bonus.

These examples are under perfect conditions (i.e Crash booster, max skills)


[Caracal, Anti-Frigate]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Warp Disruptor II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Large Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Warrior II x2


Missile DPS only: 90 w/ 945 Volley
w/ drones: 122 DPS
Speed: 2226/3170 OH
EHP: 11k (Anti-frigate remember? sacrifices must be made to hit undersized targets with oversized weapons)

[Bellicose, Anti-Frigate]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Warrior II x5


(Precision) Missile Only: 78 dps /w 888 Volley
w/ drones: 158 dps
Speed: 1834/2613
EHP: 10,814

So, this points out a few things.

1. Caracal is the best t1 cruiser for killing frigates with a heavy launcher, It applies 2 (lol) more dps than my scyFI when only comparing missile damage (and the scyFI has 3 BCU's). But it needs more drones (1-2) to make it better suited for anti-frigate using an oversized weapon. (OP?)

2. The caracal with dual nano's is quite a bit faster than most other cruisers except maybe the stabber. A few hundred m/s slower than an un-nano'd stabber. Nothing that skills/boosters/implants couldn't change to swing in your favor.

3. Don't focus on the dps number so much, but the volley. This is how the frigate dies to missiles. Not max DPS, but consistent damage. Yes, you're losing 2/3 of your DPS, and 2/3 of your volley. But guess what, each volley is still going to do up to 311 (there will be variables here, but under ideal conditions). Your average active tanked frig is using the base armor or shield amount. Think they can out rep the hits when the hits start to bleed structure? Plated are alittle different.. but are typically slower and less worrisome. Or have larger sigs thanks to shield tanks.

4. In general yes, heavy missiles could use slight tweaking. But, before you know it, you're doing too much DPS to small targets with an oversized weapon, which makes them a tad OP. If you look at the combined DPS, on average, how many frigs (the basic throw away ones that are blobbed at you) can tank 122/150 dps, other than dual rep incursus? Obviously assualt frigs are different story, but the same still applies, its just about how skillful you are either outrunning them, or setting it up so you apply max dps as he's burning towards you. So if you tweak things too much, then the fits you see here, can then start dropping dmg application mods/rigs and allowing their "frigate EHP" get boosted back to cruiser EHP, but can still murder frigates and some cruisers.

5. This proves, when you fit your ship with a FOCUS to kill frigates, it tends to do it. You sacrifice EHP but gain lots of speed. in effect requiring more pilot skill to win fights, thus, making the game more fun than pressing orbit and F1. Just like turret gunners have to minimize transversal, you too will also have to maximize range/agility and more manual flying.

What does this say about RLML? Simply that, they're even more consistent damage, but at a cost with the reload. I would agree that at least 2 more charges would bring it to an acceptable balance.

RLML are a cruiser sized weapon, and that shouldn't automatically make them OP against frigates. Theres needs to be some chance of risk for the person using the module (this is a game), not just spam missile death to any frig that comes in contact. Hence the 40s reload.

So then you say "Well we were just wanting them to nerf dmg and range", but that doesn't change the fact, that if that frigate is in range of your missiles, its going to do sustained DPS that most cannot rep through consistently, unless flown by good pilots with boosters/drugs etc. Ok, so then we nerf light missiles into the ground to where they're consistently doing.. lets say 100-150dps but with higher application(depending on ship they're used on).

Well then, whats the point of fitting them? To have a cruiser tank, but laughable dps? So when they decided to balance this class of launcher, i'm thinking these were your options:

Burst DPS that has a chance of killing a frigate or 2 before a long delay (depending on fitting/pilot skill)

OR

Something that gets nerfed worse than HM's, and is completely and utterly worthless to fit

Oh, and remember the sacrifice's i was talking about earlier? Which fit has more EHP, the ship using an oversized weapon but trying to kill frigates, or the ship with an anti-frigate weapon system that is fit to kill frigates?

It should be noted that unlike missiles, a turret ship does not have to completely change its weapon system or fit to be able to deal with both cruisers and frigates. If you fit a missile ship to be able to kill frigates you tend not to be able to deal with cruisers, and vice versa. Turrets don't have this issue (well they do but it can easily be overcome by manual piloting in the majority of cases) and the question becomes why not use a turret ship instead because you don't end up in the 'either or' situation that's won or lost before even undocking that you do in a missile ship.

Rlm were high on the metrics because they were so easy to train into to be just as effective as things like the omen and thorax. They were nerfed based on these metrics but CCP wanted them to be good vs frigates but not as good as heavy missiles against cruisers. The problem stems from issues in heavy missile application, as light fury missiles will actually do similar damage to cn heavy missiles on a fast moving cruiser hull. Equally the rlm allowed the caracal to fit a second lse, which actually let it stay on field against the omen and thorax. Normally a single lse caracal does not have the application to be able to fight something like an omen or thorax unless it uses hams, and even then it is very close.

Heavy missiles would theoretically be the go to launcher for fighting both cruisers and frigates but run into severe application problems to the point where they just really aren't worth using in place of a turret ship unless you have some outside source of webs/tps so you dont have to sacrifice the little tank you have. This leaves hams which despite having even more application issues tend to do more damage and actually can fight against other cruisers yet still do little to nothing against fast moving frigates outside of web range without making sacrifices that again, put them at what may be too much of a disadvantage against cruisers.

Nobody in the thread has once said the rlms were not too powerful and couldn't use a bit of tweaking down. The issue is that what was released, on short notice, was an incomplete weapon system (you cant change ammo during a fight when you need to without 40 seconds of doing nothing) that would have arguably served better as an entirely different weapon system once the missile damage application formula was looked at and hopefully redone.

I'm not saying that iteration on a weapon is bad, but having to iterate to fix what is likely a critical design flaw that was pointed out during testing and released anyway is frustrating. Then again so is balancing based mostly on metrics without going into the deeper question of why the metrics are skewed in such a way. Rlm were powerful, but they were also used because the alternatives were not comparable to the majority of other ships due to the way missile dmg is applied. So while nerfing rlm was the right call, changing them to an entirely different weapon system and effectively polarizing them as great or horrible with promises to possibly iterate later to make them less frustrating without really plumbing through the guts of missile application or really giving much notice is the biggest reason that there is so much negative and hostile reaction in the thread.

It would be great if rise posted here more and we all actually had a civil discussion about application, fitting, and general usefulness as well as intended missile design goals since that is the point of a feedback thread is it not?

Understood. However, the goal here is to try and pick your fights if you're solo. In a gang, use your speed to your advantage and "Snipe" with missiles.

I also was not saying we should use heavy missiles, but to show that Heavies are not incapable of killing frigs or smaller targets, just that you need to fit for it. Its aimed at the people that complain that heavies apply for ****, but then don't create fits similar to these (maybe not as extreme because you're looking for cruisers to fight, so you can drop some of the application and add more tank since your targets will be larger.

Pretty much i'm saying, missiles rely more off application then dps, but you have to fit for it to be effective, as I would consider it more as damage over time effect, the damage can't be dodged if in range. So to counter, they updated the RLML to have a break, so the other person fighting (typically a frigate) a chance to survive. Theres a player in the other ship, and they want to have fun too, and not just be steamrolled (unless active tanked) if theres a RLML on field in its older version.

If you're flying solo in a Caracal, I would say the chances of picking fights on your terms are going to be slim to none. In a gang, you are the weakest link... Sure, if you have the time without distractions, and your target is pointed - you can eventually kill everything. The problem is that if you can't kill them quickly, you usually can't disengage, either. And that's typically when uninvited guests tend to show up...


I tend to agree. Better, but not great. Heavy assaults benefit the most from rigors and flares.

An Omen with beam lasers and no damage application rigs or modules generally applies damage much better against a frig with an afterburner, and it's only at the worst possible traversal that the numbers begin to compare, though even then the greater base DPS means you are doing much more damage. And if you add tracking rigs and/or modules? It's truly laughable at that point.

I finaly got around to testing the Caracel and RLML in a lvl3 mission in Emperor Station, Amarr. Let me sum it up for you. This mission shouldn't have taken me more than 10-20 minutes.

I spent the last 45 minutes doing it. I had to reload the damn things almost ten times to kill the fing repair station. Then reload again while tanking the Merc wave to fire back. In total, I spent over half of it loading the damn things. Congrats, I have determined that the only acceptable use for these things is to reprocess them.

Caracal is now a piece of **** in every respect. Good thing I have good Amarr, WINMATAR and Gallente ship skills.

CCP Rise and Fozzie, I am sending you coal for christmas. I am never ever going to trust one damn thing you say about balancing again. Seriously, you need to be fired or retasked.

*Estimate of time was off: closer to an hour.

Footnote: You ****** over Caldari pilots with the drake, HML last year now this half-assed idea with RLMLs & RHMLs. You have not addressed any of the underlying issues with missile mechanics. We as players have told you more times than I can count both in this thread, HML (Odyssey) and CML (Retribution). I can do your job better than you and your team. Hell, if I could I would be stripping you and your team of your salaries till you do your job with quality and professionalism. Which I have yet to see or evaluate acceptable performance in either criteria. You would be fired, lose your PE liscence and be a homeless bum in the woods if you were in my career field: with the ethic and professionalism you displayed.

Yes, my EVE kingdom for an armor-based Caldari missile ship...