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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2701 - 2013-12-04 16:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I don't want to start a riot here but for the time period used to compile the numbers, there is probably a pretty good reason the Domi came out so far ahead compared to other ships.
When two large nulsec entities meet on a field of battle (in a system) there is a good chance they will be flying similar, Doctrines. Looking at the killboard for this period, would show Domis got a lot of kills, many of those could have in fact been other domis from opposing fleets.

The great and terrible thing about statistics is in the compilation and presentation. Without looking at how those domis got so many kills one could assume the Domi to be way over powered and decide it is in need of rebalancing ( a nerf). Thing is, that 19k of kills came from major fleet battles, ( like the old drake blobs and look what happened there) where two sides lined up with similar doctrines and punched it out till one was left standing. (look at Domi losses for the same period)

A spike of success for a ship or weapon system, is and never should be a reason to "balance" a weapon system or ship, without looking at the whole picture.


NB; Dr Sraggles; You want to use Battleships for smaller gang / fleet fights, Get over to lowsec around Kor Azor, Genesis. I can tell you from experience you will have no trouble finding fights ( with battleships)


No worries, like I said, as Null Fleets have access to whatever works then it matters not (as they all have Domis).

When it comes to small gang though the type of balance that would be ideal would be to have other racial BS better represented. When you invest so many SP in missiles and then realize that it would have been better spent in Drones only after months of game play (and it will take months of retraining to fix) then there is a Customer Service problem. Eve is a tiny game with only 50,000 players on at the busiest times. Other games have *dozens* of servers with the same number of players. There are a lot of Customer Service problems the biggest of which is probably newbie success, imo (but I digress).

I've been through these balancing wars before in other MMO's. Some subscribe to the conspiracy theory line that the idea is to get months more out of the players subscription by motivating them to train something completely different. I go with the simplest explanation generally: Balance is hard and the players find balance problems and exploit them.

Solution: Give Caldari better drone bandwidth and larger bays. You have to sacrifice lows, highs, mediums and rigs to maximise Drones. Total damage output gain/loss should nearly take care of itself with a tweak in ship bonuses (easy for me to say).
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2702 - 2013-12-04 16:57:20 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I give up... Switching over to guns and not looking back. Trying to get CCP to recognize and acknowledge that they've made some critical mistakes with respect to missiles is like trying to convince conspiracy theorists that we really did land on the moon. I'm not waiting around for the next update (let alone another year or more) for another set of half thought-out changes that seem to be introduced on a whim.

Not empty quoting..

As we know too well, CCP cares what Eve players DO, much less what they SAY (leaked email) therefore adapting whenever devs fix something that wasn't broken by switching over to FOTM sounds like an appropriate feedback to me.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2703 - 2013-12-04 17:12:55 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
As we know too well, CCP cares what Eve players DO, much less what they SAY (leaked email) therefore adapting whenever devs fix something that wasn't broken by switching over to FOTM sounds like an appropriate feedback to me.

Excellent! If all missile users switch over to hybrids maybe we can get those nerfed too… Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Elusive Panda
Public Enemies CO
The Initiative.
#2704 - 2013-12-04 18:09:52 UTC
Sentry V completed yesterday.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#2705 - 2013-12-04 18:17:12 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:

The reload time is a horrible concept. Its not that HML and RLML overlapped. Its just that heavy missiles were destroyed by rise and friends almost 2 years ago. They reduced hm damage by 20%, nerfed explo radius and velocity. Which effectively killed the heavy missile launcher in pvp. The t2 varients are even worse as the damage dealing rage's suffere from massive explosive radius limiting you to only bc's and bs's. An utter insult considering these are cruiser sized weapons. Plop on an ab you wont take any damage from heavy missiles.

Light missile caracals have horrible dps, however they have a 1000-1200 volley which is used in alpha fleets. For reasons stated above there are no hml caracals. As for hams, only the t2 versions do any dps, ofcourse without any tp's that will be negated. All in all, only one missile cruiser and bc for caldari. Moa, ****. Ferox, ****. To be quite frank all missile ships have less dps and less applied damage than turret based ships. This being said, caldari have nothing but mission ships above frigs and dessies.


Pretty much this, the Drake nerf was a necessary evil, but Rise had to put on his ****** hat and nerf missiles instead. THEN we got the drake nerf. I'm not even trying to understand anymore...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2706 - 2013-12-04 20:01:10 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

The great and terrible thing about statistics is in the compilation and presentation. Without looking at how those domis got so many kills one could assume the Domi to be way over powered and decide it is in need of rebalancing ( a nerf). Thing is, that 19k of kills came from major fleet battles, ( like the old drake blobs and look what happened there) where two sides lined up with similar doctrines and punched it out till one was left standing. (look at Domi losses for the same period)



That is easy.

Its us dirty blobber the going standard means that every ship that dies to our domi fleets has 60-180 domiix's on it, the evekill top twenty just parses the ships on a kill, not the killing blow, this is why a sucessful null doctrine drakes for a long time, zealots during CFC vs NC. in Tribute, Mega's during Fountain.....Domi's now crush the eve kill top twenty, the numbers are multiplied from 6 to 18 times over your typical small gang.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#2707 - 2013-12-04 23:27:01 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I give up... Switching over to guns and not looking back. Trying to get CCP to recognize and acknowledge that they've made some critical mistakes with respect to missiles is like trying to convince conspiracy theorists that we really did land on the moon. I'm not waiting around for the next update (let alone another year or more) for another set of half thought-out changes that seem to be introduced on a whim.

We've basically seen Drakes and now Caracals eliminated as viable PvP options. Tengus have been relegated to the sidelines by being banned from most FW and DED complexes since Odyssey, and with the recent RLML change in Rubicon they're more or less useless in PvP as well. Even the Cerberus - which was shaping up to be a decent PvP ship - has all but disappeared. It's only a matter of time before Tengus get nerfed to the point where they're no longer viable in PvE, either.

Ironically, I think the new Marauder actually influenced the changes to RLMLs because a few enterprising individuals were conceiving it as the ultimate frigate-gank platform.
Evil




The part that really sticks in my craw is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a large ship for "frigate ganking". Heck, who has a right to dictate who uses what for anything? If someone wants to field a cruiser to gank frigates, so what. The same cruiser is dead when another cruiser shows up.


The RLML could have been the answer to these potential "intie gank fleets" we see now that their warp speeds are up and they are immune to bubbles. With a 40 second reload now all you need it to send in cheap tackle, let it pop, then while the quarry takes 40 SECONDS TO RELOAD you can move in the expensive stuff.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2708 - 2013-12-05 01:05:23 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

The RLML could have been the answer to these potential "intie gank fleets" we see now that their warp speeds are up and they are immune to bubbles. With a 40 second reload now all you need it to send in cheap tackle, let it pop, then while the quarry takes 40 SECONDS TO RELOAD you can move in the expensive stuff.


Or you can simply wtfpwn it with a turret cruiser.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2709 - 2013-12-05 01:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Here's another suggestion... change the fitting requirements such that RLMLs become a light weapons system and RHMLs become a medium-based weapons system. Then the burst and 40-second reload make more sense on a frigate and cruiser hull, because they suck on cruiser and battleship hulls. Yeah, I realize I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel here...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2710 - 2013-12-05 01:48:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Here's another suggestion... change the fitting requirements such that RLMLs become a light weapons system and RHMLs become a medium-based weapons system. Then the burst and 40-second reload make more sense on a frigate and cruiser hull, because they suck on cruiser and battleship hulls. Yeah, I realize I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel here...



That's CRAZY TALK Arthur! Then a $200 Mill Cerb would do the dps of a $60 mill Talos....O wait...Cry
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2711 - 2013-12-05 01:53:36 UTC
Elusive Panda wrote:
Sentry V completed yesterday.



Hey, look at the bright side:

If you spend a month each training Large Hybrids V, Sentries V, Large Drones V and Gall BS V plus add a few level V support skills in a mere 6 short months (and $120 poorer) you will actually have a viable BS for pvp!

Instead of remaps they should let us reallocate our SP every year Cry.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2712 - 2013-12-05 02:13:23 UTC
I just have a horrible feeling that CCP thinks this is such a great idea that we will see it on cruises next.

I just bought a cerb about 2 weeks before they ruined it now im desperately trying to make HAMs work on it sigh.

"What you talking about willis"

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#2713 - 2013-12-05 03:02:41 UTC
ccp needs to un nerf heavy missles, buff explosive speed on hams, completly fix the phoenix and citadel torps/cruises

and finally cut the reload time in half for rapid launchers.

sad as it is i think CCP rise is corrupt and trying to nerf missles and missle ships into the ground cause he has his own agenda against them or perhaps outside influence is trying to get missiles nerfed.

Too long has gunnery been the go to for pvp! missile users rise up! and FIRE ZEE MISSILES!

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2714 - 2013-12-05 03:04:18 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
ccp needs to un nerf heavy missles, buff explosive speed on hams, completly fix the phoenix and citadel torps/cruises

and finally cut the reload time in half for rapid launchers.

sad as it is i think CCP rise is corrupt and trying to nerf missles and missle ships into the ground cause he has his own agenda against them or perhaps outside influence is trying to get missiles nerfed.

Too long has gunnery been the go to for pvp! missile users rise up! and FIRE ZEE MISSILES!

All zee missiles?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2715 - 2013-12-05 03:25:24 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Elusive Panda wrote:
Sentry V completed yesterday.



Hey, look at the bright side:

If you spend a month each training Large Hybrids V, Sentries V, Large Drones V and Gall BS V plus add a few level V support skills in a mere 6 short months (and $120 poorer) you will actually have a viable BS for pvp!

Instead of remaps they should let us reallocate our SP every year Cry.
! Major problem there, 6 months from now the Domi will be nerfed and that 6 months of training is wasted.
So you will need to do it again for whatever gets the OP badge next, ( OP by CCP standards not real use)

This actually makes good business sense, keep forcing people to switch doctrines and retrain every 6 months = more plex sold (cash for CCP), more skill books sold (ISK for CCP).

Cynical outlook - Yes, but prove me wrong.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2716 - 2013-12-05 03:42:53 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Here's another suggestion... change the fitting requirements such that RLMLs become a light weapons system and RHMLs become a medium-based weapons system. Then the burst and 40-second reload make more sense on a frigate and cruiser hull, because they suck on cruiser and battleship hulls. Yeah, I realize I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel here...



That's CRAZY TALK Arthur! Then a $200 Mill Cerb would do the dps of a $60 mill Talos....O wait...Cry

I actually thought when I 1st saw RHML they would be good on a BC, then I saw the PG requirements.
As a BC weapon they may have merit, make then relatively hard to fit, so as to not overpower a BC you would need to sacrifice most of your tank to fit a full rack (720 T2 Howitzer PG).

If they are to stay a Battleship size weapon ( very likely) give us a T3 BC that can fit them (Naga comes to mind) Let Caldari compete in the T3 BC line with a weapon that is Caldari, Missiles.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2717 - 2013-12-05 06:51:02 UTC
It always amazes me how much time ccp seems to invest in dumb ****. Yet, they cant even fix things of meaning.

Example: Changing the lights on a wolf from purple to grey.
Camera zooming after undock,,,,,,,
The volume of mwd's and ab's.,,,,,,,,
Making the sound of booster ships more prevalent in front of the ship......
Among other dumb ****......

CCP has released a number of patches since Rubicon deployed
Let me sum it up:
Rubicon 1.0.1

****. ****, more ****

Rubicon 1.0.2

More ****, extra ****, alpha ****, beta ****.......High Grade (******** ****) Omega

Rubicon 1.0.3

Bullshit, Cowshit, dogshit, cat diarrhea , peoples diarrhea,.....

Rubicon 1.0.4

Blue ****, green ****, burgundy ****, quad laser ****, heavy pulse lazors with conflag ****.

Rubicon 1.05
..........I think you know where im going with this.................
Rubicon 1.0.6
...................................................................................................
Rubicon 1.0.7

Im tired of saying the word ****.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2718 - 2013-12-05 07:37:10 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
It always amazes me how much time ccp seems to invest in dumb ****. Yet, they cant even fix things of meaning.

Example: Changing the lights on a wolf from purple to grey.
Camera zooming after undock,,,,,,,
The volume of mwd's and ab's.,,,,,,,,
Making the sound of booster ships more prevalent in front of the ship......
Among other dumb ****......

CCP has released a number of patches since Rubicon deployed
Let me sum it up:
Rubicon 1.0.1

****. ****, more ****

Rubicon 1.0.2

More ****, extra ****, alpha ****, beta ****.......High Grade (******** ****) Omega

Rubicon 1.0.3

Bullshit, Cowshit, dogshit, cat diarrhea , peoples diarrhea,.....

Rubicon 1.0.4

Blue ****, green ****, burgundy ****, quad laser ****, heavy pulse lazors with conflag ****.

Rubicon 1.05
..........I think you know where im going with this.................
Rubicon 1.0.6
...................................................................................................
Rubicon 1.0.7

Im tired of saying the word ****.


Please try not to get this thread locked...
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#2719 - 2013-12-05 08:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
Elusive Panda wrote:
Sentry V completed yesterday.


Just put that in today myself, don't like drones much but it'll work for now.

Noticed some anomalous figures in my mission loot so when I get up in the morning I'll verify wether my working theory is true and post some hard numbers. The initial suggestion though is if you have spare LML's now's the time to sell.
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2720 - 2013-12-05 10:58:59 UTC
Personally, I smell a nerf to all launcher based weapons systems to the point where they are little used.

My tin-foil-hattery says this is happening to reduce server loading. I recall a CCP examination of server loading a while back and launcher based weapons are server resource hungry.

Less launcher ships flying around = big win for CCP.

Tell me I'm wrong. ;)