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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2621 - 2013-12-02 22:28:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Could you perhaps post these kills to evekill or battleclinic?

I only got the single kill, as I didn't have a disruptor or scrambler to pin anything.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20741668


haha I saw you in that solo Tengu sitting outside a plex for ages with a whole gang of shiny stuff huddled up inside, I knew I recognized the name from somewhere. Cool RSPT
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2622 - 2013-12-02 23:03:59 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
haha I saw you in that solo Tengu sitting outside a plex for ages with a whole gang of shiny stuff huddled up inside, I knew I recognized the name from somewhere. Cool RSPT

Haha. What is it with Tengus that frigates seem to find so appealing? Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2623 - 2013-12-03 00:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Seems that most of us (excluding Bouh, who doesn't count) have reached the consensus that the new RHMLs and RLMLs tis horrendus. Yay! Now, I can go back to deciding what the hell I am going to do with the couple mil of SP in missiles I have...

CCP, where is my SP redistribution? I would like to move it to Projectile weapons please. I hear that Arty and Autos are awesome! lol
__________

I will fix CCP Rise and Fozzie's horrible missile balancing for the Black Friday deal of 50,000 USD. However, any additional deranged ideas that need fixing will cost you $500 USD per item.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2624 - 2013-12-03 00:42:58 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Seems that most of us (excluding Bouh, who doesn't count) have reached the consensus that the new RHMLs and RLMLs tis horrendus. Yay! Now, I can go back to deciding what the hell I am going to do with the couple mil of SP in missiles I have...

CCP, where is my SP redistribution? I would like to move it to Projectile weapons please. I hear that Arty and Autos are awesome! lol

I heard that pretty much anything besides missiles is awesome. And it gets even more awesome if you trade in your Caldari SP too and put that somewhere useful for a change.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2625 - 2013-12-03 00:48:03 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i would suggest
- nerf light missile damage 10% maybe buff light missile launchers ROF if needed for frigs
-increase ammo capacity by about double on RLML's (HAMS have 60 maybe reduce HAMS to 45)
- reduce reload time to 25 seconds and increase reload time on all missile launchers to 17.5 seconds
- add reduced reload time skill for all launchers 1 second a level.

i always think its strange that missiles can reload as fast as projectiles do seems strange too me.. bulkiness and all i would think a crew would need to practice reloading missiles more than reloading bullets


Wow those are some truly terrible ideas...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2626 - 2013-12-03 01:57:03 UTC
Well, there goes 3.25-million SP down the drain.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2627 - 2013-12-03 02:09:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i would suggest
- nerf light missile damage 10% maybe buff light missile launchers ROF if needed for frigs


The actual DPS on light missiles are perfect. Like quite literally spot on. The only fault with them is more to do with the Light Precision missile, as although it is meant to be very accurate, against fast AB fit frigates it still hits a little too well, so need a very mild explosion radius / explosion velocity nerf. And I mean minor, or the things will be gimped and useless like Heavy Precision missiles are now.

With the rest of your points, you are quite literally outlining the mechanics of the original RLML we just lost in Rubicon... *face palms*


Harvey James wrote:

i always think its strange that missiles can reload as fast as projectiles do seems strange too me.. bulkiness and all i would think a crew would need to practice reloading missiles more than reloading bullets


This is a cutaway drawing of one of the largest guns ever to be fired in anger. It was designed in the late 1930's.

http://graphics.latimes.com/media/flatgraphics/towercard/86/iowaTurretTowerFinal.jpg

Now imagine technology thousands of years from now and you have your answer.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2628 - 2013-12-03 02:27:03 UTC
Moonaura wrote:

With the rest of your points, you are quite literally outlining the mechanics of the original RLML we just lost in Rubicon... *face palms*


I'm pretty sure the batshit crazy idea to make all missile launchers take 75% longer to reload wasn't part of the original RLML...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2629 - 2013-12-03 02:30:49 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I'm pretty sure the batshit crazy idea to make all missile launchers take 75% longer to reload wasn't part of the original RLML...

It's in the right bat channel, though.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2630 - 2013-12-03 03:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Hybrids. 10km range with antimatter, 80-round capacity, dual thermic-kinetic damage and best of all: 5-second reload time. Yeah, only 5 seconds to either reload -or- swap ammo out for a different range. And it weighs next to nothing; 10,000 rounds of medium hybrid ammunition takes up 100 m3 of cargo space.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2631 - 2013-12-03 04:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Rise, when you have a moment - could you outfit a Caracal for solo PvP using RLMLs and post the killmail results? I'd love to see your fit to get an idea of where I'm going wrong. Thanks.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2632 - 2013-12-03 05:25:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore. They are frigate interdiction weapons, and they will be very good at that.

Example : you are in a cruiser fleet and one get tackled by a fast tackler, but the RLML cruiser in the fleet will fastly get rid of him and the fleet will safely go away.
In the same kind of fleet, the RLML ship will also be able to shoot at any frigate (tackle, EWAR...) an ennemy fleet could have, removing them from the field.

And if required, the RLML ship can shoot at the primary and add a good burst dps to take down a target before reloading.

A drone ship can do the same, but a lot less effectively : light drones will never ever have 300dps.

RLML ship are now escorting vessels for the fleet, a job destroyers are bad at because they are too vulnerable to ennemy cruisers the fleet might encounter.

And RHML should work the same for BS against cruisers, yet I think a BS can wait 40 seconds and continue the fight then, si I think it's less damaging for them, unless you plan to shoot at BS.

Logistic ships are the worst ship in game for soloing, yet no one would say they are useless. They are supporting ships. RLML are now supporting weapons.

RLML and RHML are not supposed to obsolete other missiles systems and a lot of complaints here aimed the fact that they can't replace other weapons effectively, but they should not do that. There should be use cases for all of them, but for most situations involving low numbers in point range, HAM should be the weapon of choice, exactly like short range turrets are the weapons of choice for turret point range engagements.


So what we have is a weapon that is only useful for 1 role and only 1 target at a time. Yes an RLML caracal in a fleet of cruisers can take out 1 tackler but then, it is a cruiser fleet so any ship in the fleet can take out a tackler, what is the caracals role, it doesn't have 1.

Unless you have perfect skills your rlml caracal does not have 300 dps. Mine does, 260dps with precision @ 31k, if the tackler is not scrammed and webbed there is a damned good chance the caracal is not going to kill it. If it is webbed and scrammed you don't need the caracal as it will be killed by any other ship in your cruiser fleet.

How you could even try to compare a logistics ship to a caracal just beggars belief. One is supposed to be an attack cruiser, the other is a defensive (logistics) ship. Nothing comparable on them. Actually if you include reload time, my Exequror has more DPS than my caracal.

A supporting weapon that is only useful for a very limited time is not a support so much as a hindrance.

If you really believe missiles are so useful, why do you not use them??

The complaints here are not so much they can't replace a weapon as they are about them replacing a weapon and now not having an alternative. There is NO RLML as it was prior to Rubicon and there is nothing to use in its place.

Look at it this way; Would you be happy if at the next update ALL medium rail guns got a 40 second reload time but beam lasers and projectiles didn't?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2633 - 2013-12-03 05:32:28 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Is there some Null Blob Doctrine for their mega fleet battles that makes missiles OP?

Is that the problem? When you get 300 Ravens/Carcals together then that is more powerful than 300 Megathrons/Vexors?


I am sorry but that is just really funny.
There is a simple reason nul fleets don't use missiles. Missiles aren't good enough - see HML nerf & the hundreds of drakes that went up for sale just after.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Utopia Atheras
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union
#2634 - 2013-12-03 07:45:34 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Again, RLML are NOT a solo weapon anymore. They are frigate interdiction weapons, and they will be very good at that.

Example : you are in a cruiser fleet and one get tackled by a fast tackler, but the RLML cruiser in the fleet will fastly get rid of him and the fleet will safely go away.
In the same kind of fleet, the RLML ship will also be able to shoot at any frigate (tackle, EWAR...) an ennemy fleet could have, removing them from the field.

And if required, the RLML ship can shoot at the primary and add a good burst dps to take down a target before reloading.

A drone ship can do the same, but a lot less effectively : light drones will never ever have 300dps.

RLML ship are now escorting vessels for the fleet, a job destroyers are bad at because they are too vulnerable to ennemy cruisers the fleet might encounter.

And RHML should work the same for BS against cruisers, yet I think a BS can wait 40 seconds and continue the fight then, si I think it's less damaging for them, unless you plan to shoot at BS.

Logistic ships are the worst ship in game for soloing, yet no one would say they are useless. They are supporting ships. RLML are now supporting weapons.

RLML and RHML are not supposed to obsolete other missiles systems and a lot of complaints here aimed the fact that they can't replace other weapons effectively, but they should not do that. There should be use cases for all of them, but for most situations involving low numbers in point range, HAM should be the weapon of choice, exactly like short range turrets are the weapons of choice for turret point range engagements.


So what we have is a weapon that is only useful for 1 role and only 1 target at a time. Yes an RLML caracal in a fleet of cruisers can take out 1 tackler but then, it is a cruiser fleet so any ship in the fleet can take out a tackler, what is the caracals role, it doesn't have 1.

Unless you have perfect skills your rlml caracal does not have 300 dps. Mine does, 260dps with precision @ 31k, if the tackler is not scrammed and webbed there is a damned good chance the caracal is not going to kill it. If it is webbed and scrammed you don't need the caracal as it will be killed by any other ship in your cruiser fleet.

How you could even try to compare a logistics ship to a caracal just beggars belief. One is supposed to be an attack cruiser, the other is a defensive (logistics) ship. Nothing comparable on them. Actually if you include reload time, my Exequror has more DPS than my caracal.

A supporting weapon that is only useful for a very limited time is not a support so much as a hindrance.

If you really believe missiles are so useful, why do you not use them??

The complaints here are not so much they can't replace a weapon as they are about them replacing a weapon and now not having an alternative. There is NO RLML as it was prior to Rubicon and there is nothing to use in its place.

Look at it this way; Would you be happy if at the next update ALL medium rail guns got a 40 second reload time but beam lasers and projectiles didn't?

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2635 - 2013-12-03 08:25:29 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Unless you have perfect skills your rlml caracal does not have 300 dps. Mine does, 260dps with precision @ 31k, if the tackler is not scrammed and webbed there is a damned good chance the caracal is not going to kill it. If it is webbed and scrammed you don't need the caracal as it will be killed by any other ship in your cruiser fleet.

How you could even try to compare a logistics ship to a caracal just beggars belief. One is supposed to be an attack cruiser, the other is a defensive (logistics) ship. Nothing comparable on them. Actually if you include reload time, my Exequror has more DPS than my caracal.
Navy missiles will hit most frigates fine...

And you should maybe read the definition of "support" to understand what I meant with the logi comparison.

But reading you there, I have the impression that light missiles were already almost useless before rubicon and turrets were already much better with drones to hunt frigates. Simple question then : why were Caracal so much popular in FW ?

In fact, you just look like you want turrets with missiles skills, because you always minimize all missiles advantages and maximize turret ones. You look like hating missiles and largely prefering turrets, but still stick to missiles in some masochistic way...

Quote:
Look at it this way; Would you be happy if at the next update ALL medium rail guns got a 40 second reload time but beam lasers and projectiles didn't?
If railguns could hit targets below 15km and see their dps doubled with this, they would be amazing and we wouldn't have overlap between beams and railguns anymore, but that would be redundant with RLML now.

Oh, and nobody ever answered the question of the overlap between old RLML and HML : with old RLML, what role HML would fit ?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2636 - 2013-12-03 08:38:47 UTC
Why not just magnify on what's done? Improve RoF with reducing the duration by 50% and increase reload time to 60 seconds.
Bukkake mode activate!

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2637 - 2013-12-03 09:04:39 UTC
I think CCP should start with the Basic problems, before patching the wounds of induvidual missile problem.

The Basic problem is that missiles are static.

Turrets and Drones can easier adapt to changes, through a great choice of amunition, modules, rigs and even modules that are not directly turret related. (more agilty will make it easier to get your tranversal right) and piloting.

Missiles lack these modules /ammo choices (they "have"selectical damage, though most ships have there bonus on a speciic damage type, so in quite some occasions that is a paper bonus)/ and they will not profit from any form of damage aplication through launcher related modules (I consider the Web and TP directly related to the launchers)

So with every ballance adjustment it's much harder to adapt to changes with launchers/missiles that is is with turrets based weapons, due to the lack of options.

this works both way's they have the tendency to become very fast either O.P. or useless.

My sugestion to the Ballance Crew would be the following:

for now, finish ballancing the ships.

Then start redesigning missiles as a whole, so users can adapt to changes in the future.

Untill then please return the old RLML or make it a system next to the currrent system.


damage projection ballancing/the lack of adaptablility and the insane SP cost compared to turrets and drones are at this moment the biggest problems for making missiles a useful system.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#2638 - 2013-12-03 09:30:54 UTC
I think we take the problem by the wrong side.

When you create something whatever it is, you must think about one thing: “What will I do with this?”
RLML and RHML have a mission: Destroy smaller ships. Fregates and Destroyers for RLML and Cruisers and Battlecruisers for RHML. They must be good, very good, at this because in any other case they will be worse than other modules.

To me, they are not good enough at this because, without a web, after they killed one target they cannot kill a second one. With a web and mounted on the good ship they will be able to destroy two or three targets at best before reloading. And the time reload is so long that the fight will end before you will be able to shoot a second time.

Perharps the best way to modify them would be to see these modules as secondary weapons. Give them excellent base stats but give no bonus to any ship to use it.

So you would mount them on all cruisers or BS as secondary weapon as you use drones.
Good Rate of Fire, Long recharge time, but 50 units loaded instead 18. No bonus on Caracal or BC or BS.
If you mount them as primary weapon on a caracal you would have no Damage bonus (range bonus why not)

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2639 - 2013-12-03 11:09:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Fun times. This is an interesting RLML update... I equipped a "suicide Tengu" and went looking for a fight. Took me 20 jumps through low-sec to finally find one (go figure). I ran 5x Arbalest RLMLs with no missile rigs, modules or other enhancements. I got into an engagement with a Incursus, Keres, Navy Comet, Thrasher and Malediction. Wasted the Incursus in no-time flat, put the Keres into hull twice (driving it off twice) and mauled the Thrasher and Malediction. Long story short: the frigates and destroyers all tucked tail and ran as soon as they realized they were screwed. Even the cruisers were wary.

They tried scrambling me - nope. Tried web'ing - nope. Tried neuts - nope. Then they called in the big guns. I finally went down to the combined firepower from a Thorax, Rupture, Navy Brutix and Typhoon. Before perishing in a glorious fireball, I peeled the shields completely off the Brutix and Rupture - and knocked about 10% armor off each (best I could do; RMLs just don't have staying power). I died to a combination of Neutron Blasters, Hammerheads and Mjolnir Rage Torpedos (Tengus do have a pretty big EM hole).

If I'd been in a Caracal I'd have been dead long before the heavies showed up, though.
Hate to be harsh here BUT in a 600mil very specifically fit ship, you managed to kill 1 frigate who could not shoot back, while a comet had him scrammed and pointed?? I'm sorry but that is not a really glowing "RLML are good" showing is it?

** Looks like it was a fun fight though Blink

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2640 - 2013-12-03 11:41:10 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
I think we take the problem by the wrong side.
So you would mount them on all cruisers or BS as secondary weapon as you use drones.
Good Rate of Fire, Long recharge time, but 50 units loaded instead 18. No bonus on Caracal or BC or BS.
If you mount them as primary weapon on a caracal you would have no Damage bonus (range bonus why not)
Caracal has no damage bonus, that is part of the problem related to RLML. ROF bonus simply means that every 44 seconds you have to wait 40 seconds to fire again.
As a secondary weapon system, do you mean in utility slots or instead of another weapon? I put 2 on a navy cane just to see whether it was worth it. 51 DPS for 85 seconds, I figure it might come in handy for shooting a drone or 2

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.