Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Only from 100km+. Some of us are legitimately interested in discussing the changes to RLML, so perhaps you could choose to either contribute to the discussion or find a different thread to further the missile vs. guns debate?

That rail Thorax will kill any Caracal with superior DPS and superior tank. There is no way the Caracal survives in point range. You've never flown a Caracal so you have no clue. You were just shown what the dps over time is for the Caracal and yet you deny the reality that the 40second reload puts on the ship and it's massive effect. Any cruiser with a Med Repper is gonna survive the 50 seconds of missiles from the new RLML. Why do you not realize this is a fact? Because you simply are a know nothing nerf herder?

That "trash" Incursus fit is also very well known....as a standard tackler with some tank to go after dessies and cruisers and any frig that is foolish enough to neglect local and miss a gang coming in to gank. I think it is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that it is limited by it's lack of a web so cannot control range. It's job is to point something that then gets involved in fighting it and then survive with it's strong tank until the gang arrives.

The point Moonaura was making is that this is the strongest tank of any t1 frig and the rail Thorax has no trouble with it. You claimed an Incursus would get under the rails and have it's way with a rail cruiser. You simply are wrong which was just demonstrated and refuse to admit it.

Maybe you should actually stick to what you know, though we are struggling to find out exactly what that is.

But you know nothing about RLML ships so maybe you could stop polluting this discussion.

If you use the Warrior drones, the DPS for the Thorax is much higher mate.

What I'd do if I was (and will do) is take different drones in the Cargo hold, Mediums if I see brawlers in sites, and warriors if I see kiters. I can dock, change drones and be away again, I can also switch point types to stop MWD on a close range ship if I wanted too, as well as web it.

You have to admit - its damned flexible boat to go out solo and have fun with.

As for dying to a cruiser, quite possibly, but it can do 440 DPS across a decent close range engagement and use the webs to control things. I'd definitely would say its weak. The Caracal with the RLML is strong against cruisers, but only while its 18 missiles last, I was really hitting my mates Vagabond when we tested it on Sisi, but with one cycle of his ASB, he was back to full tank.

The RLML is not overpowered, either before or now (Now its worse overall and very specific in its use). What is currently, IMHO the issue, is that the Light Missiles that they fire, are too accurate with Precisions. We've already shown that with the other missiles and guns, that it takes at least a target painter for any of them to hit perfect (although some gun ships can regardless). As it stands, that isn't the case with Light Precision Missiles, they will hit almost all targets for full damage without a TP. But please don't forget those premium mid slots. Most shield frigates can't fit a TP and Point and Prop and Tank. So I don't think they need tweaking much, only very slightly. But then again, Rockets should also do more DPS.

I've read all your posts and totally agree. CCP Rise was at least still monitoring the thread and taking note of the more structured replies (like yours and a few others). The last 5 or 6 pages has been more about whether missiles on a whole are OP ( LOL) or whether a Throrax should hit a Condor harder than a Ham Caracal (examples only)

I am hoping to keep Rise following this thread, if for no other reason than to keep us updated on what's happening with the new missile systems. If the thread gets derailed further he will just stop following altogether and we will get nothing.

**I'm not saying the people posting are wrong, just that we need to try and keep the thread focused for it to be useful

Talking about RLMLs and RHMLs in a vacuum is pointless. The last 5 or 6 pages have been about the context in which these systems exist, and why nerfing RLMLs because they were more popular on cruisers than HML or HAMs was the wrong decision.

Despite that I am much more inclined to use SiSi for stuff...I digged into EFT for the hell of it.

Now, for this comparison I used the now "awesome" CMLs. Awesome compared the missile options that are larger than LMs. Now, let's take a review of the DPS Graph. For the record, I compared it to a Railgun Fitted Hyperion and a Dominix with Sentries. All ships used in the DPS graph were with max skills.

The target ship is a Rifter PvP fitting. The rifter pilot is an idiot for this test and is headed straight at the enemy. Now, let's take a look at the DPS. Domi is using T2 Gardes. The Attacker is stationary and the frig is attacking at 100% velocity (~3km/s).

Domi: ~940 DPS @35-5 km
Hyperion: ~360 DPS @55km inward using antimatter

And now drum-roll please...Raven at a pitiful 79-DPS with T2 Precision CMs from 150-0km.

That is just pathetic...Let's think about this in terms of simple math that hopefully Bouh can keep up with. The Raven we will say is doing 80-consistently. Now that means the Hyperion is doing about 4.5x the Raven over half the Raven's range using antimatter. Compared to that the Domi takes the gold medal at 11.75x the Raven. If we pick the halfway mark the Domi is still dealing 3.75x the Raven with GARDEs T2!!

The raven doesn't take the lead in terms of DPS till we pass the 105km mark. However, we all know that no-one would engage a frig with missiles that far out. Much less the 155km that the graph is showing for.
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So what happens if we change the target to another...Raven! Since Caldari ships have these insanely large sig-radius for a advanced shield-sensor using bunch. But hey, let's focus and take a look at the numbers using the same three battleships.

Raven suddenly gets a hell lot better with 600-DPS out to 110km.
Hyperion delivers 360-DPS from 50km inward, ~60dps at 110km using antimatter.
Domi still delivers 960-DPS from ~40km inward. If we switch to Warden T2s we deal 570-DPS out to 80km.

Again the only place the Raven stands a chance is at absurdly far out ranges that nearly no-one will lock or engage at (over 100km) with missiles in PvP. The end result of this little excercise further enforced that you don't want to use missile boats.

*Used T2 weapons, T2 or Faction Ammo, used weapon mods for missiles and only TCs for turrets. T2 Damage Amplifier (3) and (2) T2 Omnidirectional Tracking Links for the drones.

What fits were you using for this comparison? Because with a target moving at 3,000 m/sec I have to seriously question whether rails or Warden sentries would have much luck applying full DPS, either. It also stands to reason that sentries and railguns would also see more than a few misses. There's really not enough information to really draw any conclusions for this, other than frigates are not the best thing to hunt with battleships.

I'm going to throw out an idea.. It may be stupid but I'd like someone who could do the numbers to look at it.

I have always considered RLML as a light HAM type weapon, high damage close range.

Caldari Navy Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . Current. . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . 3750... . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . . .5s. . . . . . . . .3 s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . .170m/s. . . .150m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . 40 m. . . . . . .40 m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . .95hp. . . . . . .95hp


Fury Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . Current. . . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . .3750. . . . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . .3.75s . . . . . . .2.75s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . . 143m/s. . . . . 135m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . .69m. . . . . . . . 55m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . . .116hp . . . . . . .118hp

Precision Light Missile;

Attributes. . . . . . . . .Current. . . . . . New
Max Velocity. . . . . . . .3750. . . . . . . .3650
Max Flight Time. . . . . .2.5s. . . . . . . .2.25s
Exp Velocity. . . . . . . . .204m/s. . . . .204m/s
Exp Radius. . . . . . . . . ..25m. . . . . . . .20m
Damage. . . . . . . . . . . . .83hp. . . . . . . .85hp


Now before the flaming starts,
I looked at this from the point of view, Light missiles, not the RLML were a little op.
This would create drawbacks for light missile users - Light Missile Launchers could have a built-in bonus to overcome the lower range of missiles (if needed)

It needs lots of tweaking.

Yeah I know they would do more damage but at a much shorter range and if I got it right the slower Max Velocity means they would not hit a fast moving target as well.
So for bigger targets - Cruisers and above they do more damage but to small fast targets they do about the same if not a bit l less.

I'm hoping someone who is better at math than me will play with the figures.. Maybe even a dev might get to look at it.

My overall goal, get the old RLML back (with modified missiles) and the new RLML becomes a weapon in its own right alongside the old RLML.

You can tweak the DAT files in EFT with this: http://www.editplus.com/ and see the results of the changes you are suggesting. Obviously make a backup of the DAT files first