Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You're right, there's very little hope when a T2 precision heavy missile only does ~33% of its DPS against a frigate with no prop mod. It's a given that you are wasting your time.

Do you know what a Straw Man argument is? It's when you compare things that are not the same and try to make one as wrong as the other exaggerated one clearly is. But they are not the same. It's a way of saying you actually have no argument and want to distract from that.



It sounds like you cannot pilot your Thorax and want your opponents nerfed, no more. Many people in this thread with far more experience than you have pointed out your false thinking on this topic and you refuse to hear it.

What you really should do is fly a missile boat and share with us your new found leetness and actual experience with the new and old RLML launchers. Missile boats are OP clearly in your mind, you should fly them.

Until then, you are a scrub turret guy trying to get your opponents nerfed because you are butthurt that a Cerb killed your Incursus, no more.

Spare us the turret guy woes when you are talking to missile guys that have gone to turrets to fight in the cruiser class because they have actual experience with the issues of missiles and actually know what works.

I think at this point only Bouh thinks he has any credibility in this discussion. The rest of us are like this:

Is that showing the actual application though? In my limited testing experience rigors beat out flares everytime. They shouldn't but EVE physics mean that they do.
Of course I make no claim to being absolutely right and acknowledge that I could be quite wrong. :)

Oh dear. Is it that bad in this thread again? I guess I'd better leave another one of these right over here.

Rigors have the advantage to work against a more static stat that is missile radius, and at the same time it brings an indirect bonus to explosion velocity against targets smaller the your current used explosion radius.

At all level five a T1 Citadel torpedo
has an explosion radius of 1500 which is the largest possible value you can get to work against for that stat.
While the explosion radius only boosts its intended stat, explosion velocity have a much larger range to cover with its stat range.

Basically starting at 30/ms (is the base stat for T1 Citadel torpedo’s at all level five) up to the fastest ship speed in game that is if your loaded ammo have enough speed and travel time to catch the target.

I can off course have misunderstood some thing if so please correct me.

Shhh!!!!!!

I had assumed we were referring to T1 rigs, since T2 rigs are a tad expensive for PvP. So yes, 2x T2 Rigors and a T2 Flare will be marginally better (albeit expensively more so) than 2x T2 Rigors and a T1 Rigor (400 calibration not being enough to fit 3x T2 Rigors). 3x T1 Rigors will easily outperform 3x T1 Flares or 2x T1 Rigors and a T1 Flare.

So rigor, rigor, rigor…
…..

How did this thread manage to get derailed again into a missiles vs. guns debate? Weren't we discussing RLMLs…?

So the argument from Buoh put across is that basically RLML and missiles in general are overpowered because missiles can reach further and do more damage consistently than guns. They are also immune to TD (a valid arguement).

For those that have read it, I countered that, by saying that guns can still be far better than missiles and that there were many better anti-frigate cruisers out there than the Caracal that can still do more damage to other cruisers as well.

Given DPS for the RLML is now averaging at 154 dps with three BCU, I can get a Rail fit Thorax to hit 440 dps (if you use medium drones) without any DPS mods, that does far more damage than even the peak burst damage of the new RLML which hits 293 dps for those brief, 18 missiles.

The rail guns also shoot just as fast as the missiles, and reach actually further than the Caracal, so it can basically shoot any frigate, at any range - that was my goal - a universal Anti-Frigate ship.

But frankly, although I've flown plenty of other gun boats, I hadn't flown the Thorax. I can fly them, but never tried. The argument is that if you use rails, the Incursus can get in under their range, even with the AB.

Erm. No.

Me and a friend went to SISI. Outside of range, I can hit him happily at Disruptor level ranges, and eventually once he has to reload the Nanite paste, his tank breaks with guns alone. With the drones on him, things improve, but he can shoot them (and he did the rotter).

If I was going into a plex and he was camping the entrance, such as in FW - something you'll see an Incursus do a lot - then the Thorax just double webs him, and moves away easily. Even if I am webbed, I can still dictate the range, because I can overload the AB and move twice the speed, even if he has a web. Fitting a web means he has no cap stability either. Once he's at 5-7km that is when rail guns with Javelins will really start to work.

By work, I mean they utterly rip him to shreds, combine it with drones and the frigate is dead in 10-20 seconds. I am in complete control of the engagement and his guns are unable to reach me. The only damage I take is from the single light drone.

It is a perfect anti-frigate cruiser.

Now, the complaint is of course, that a Tracking Disruptor fit Condor will be able to kite such a ship, nerfing its guns, orbiting at Disruptor range. But the Thorax with Rails like this can reach a long way with its ammo. Given that it takes the best part of a month to train level V turret destabilisation - and given what I've seen from past recruitment and API's, its unlikely you'll meet many pilots who have maxed TD skills out, apart from long term vets, but even so, while the condor is closing range, you can still hit it for 90 dps, but it gets down to 14-22 dps once it is in orbit (and the thorax aims in a direction and burns away with the AB to increase tracking). That doesn't sound like a lot does it, but it can still kill the condor in 60-120 seconds, as it has no tank, just the e-war to rely on. The condor is unable to break the Thorax tank in a hurry either, doing just 70 dps.

What is better - far better - is to use Warrior Drones instead of the medium drones. These can catch and kill the Condor easily, in addition to the guns, and once a Condor pilot deviates from his orbit as his arse twitches, you're guns go back up to 90 DPS.

I reckon this makes the Thorax basically very resistant to kiting frigates frigates when fit, and flown properly - but I've yet to test on Sisi. Naturally things change fighting a gang, but I'm quite happy I could take on several brawling frigates, control the fight and take them out before my tank reloads or EHP runs out. I'd happily go against 3, maybe 4 solo. Its clear I'd need warrior drones to combat more than one kiting frigate with e-war.

Personally I want to try it a lot more and give it a whirl in game. I think it will be a lot of fun. Far better than the old or new RLML Caracal, mainly because it can control the engagement much more effectively, and dramatically out DPS a Caracal with the new RLML it when it does, and doesn't suffer a 40 second reload.

If CCP Rise's goal to get me to leave Caldari ships behind, I think he's slowly succeeding.

I would say - and I've used both guns and the TD myself in the past and found it very effective either against me or against my target. As it stands, I would say TD is probably over powered. A rail thorax that can reach over 90km, shouldnt be nerfed to 20km with a non TD bonused ship surely?

If you're going *hopefully* to fix Heavy Missiles and *hopefully* give us a choice over the RLML (Original) and the new ones, then also consider the TD issue. I would give dedicated TD ships more bonuses and the modules themselves less impact, so that the tactical e-war ships can still work as they do in the game today.

[Thorax, Anti-Frigate]
Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Reactive Armor Hardener
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Hammerhead II x5


[Incursus, Double Tank]
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S
Light Electron Blaster II, Void S

Small Nanobot Accelerator I
Small Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

Great, so now a Thorax hiting a Condor for 20 dps is fine, but a Caracal hiting it for 80 is not. Very good ! Also the Condor should be using tracking disruption script, not optimal range disruption one.

Now I have to admit your Thorax fit will be pretty effective against frigates, yet it will die to any cruiser and still don't have the range or dps a RLML Caracal have. It is also rather static because of the AB. And well it have a lot of flaws in fact but indeed against a lone T1 frigate it will be quite good.

Though your Incursus fit is trash. This Incursus fit was the fotm fit after T1 frigate rebalance because it shows high numbers, but it didn't survive the battlefield and any correctly fit frigate will kill it.

Also, I *never* said that HML or HAML are OP. Only that RLML *were*. And I'm only trying to show you that in fact HML and HAML are actually balanced.