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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2421 - 2013-11-29 16:39:01 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Also, TD, Condor and Atron like them a lot.


Yes, the first thing I did when the frigate changes came along, is fit those on there. If you also have the skills, you can use Sensor Damps instead on the Condor. Its not as good as a Maulus, and tricky to fly, but it works well.

But given you play in Faction Warfare, you know full well that an Incursus sitting at a Plex entrance can scram and web a condor before its even got its socks on. So they are pretty useless in that scenario.

A well fit rail thorax though, reckon will still kill a kiting Condor quite happily, but we can test it.

As for the range stuff you mentioned, and how your Incursus would dive in, if I double web the thorax, which is easily doable and makes up for the lost tracking computer (which I can fix with either rigs or enhancers), then your Incursus is only doing 200m/s with perfect skills. Without any propoulsion mod, the Thorax will do 300m/s, so I can, indeed control the range, and keep you where my guns hurt the most. And you can't overload for long in a frigate. Even then you only reach 254m/s, so I can still keep you at range if I want too. If I fit an AB, its very easy for me. If you fit a web as well, you can't fit a cap booster, so you can't tank for long.

Trust me, Incursus is going to die to a Thorax. 500m orbit or not.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2422 - 2013-11-29 16:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
GlueShooz wrote:
A lot of great information in this thread but I'm not sure where you guys are getting into these big open field fights. I have two FW toons and they're getting into fights within 9 km of their opponents, frequently less than 5 km (not by my choice, that's the usual range of the inevitable pirate gank). Trying to blast your way out of a gate gank is even closer range. RLML used to be a good delivery system in pvp and pve. Now it sucks. And it's pointed straight at the Caldari.

Caldari ships are mostly missile ships. CCP nerfed the principal tool of the lighter Caldari navy.: and that's all that gets into it in most FW battles. I haven't seen BC in a plex fight yet. Was this nerf the result of the Caldari ruling in PVP? Nope. They were losing to Gallente. Apparently the Caldari just plain had it coming.

Honestly the calculations you all are making are intriguing but they have no bearing upon pvp I'm experiencing.

In PVE the RLML is now useless. You used to be able to put out a steady stream of missiles with a couple RLML's. You sacrificed range on the Drake but gained close in/frig defense. That's gone. I'm training up HAM but they're power hogs, their explosive radius is about 4x your average frigate's profile and their range is inexplicably low (a bigger missile has less range?).

The RLML nerf was excessive, unnecessary and very sided.



For PvE you'll be fine in a HAM Caracal (FWIW). The precisions plus a target painter takes out frigs fine. Mostly because they are only going 200m/s as this seems to pass for frigs "burning" at you in PvE.

As far as all the theory crafting and EFT warrior-ing you are absolutely right that it bears little resemblance to the vast majority of EVE pvp which is the primary target/gate camp victim getting blobbed by 10 guys. It all goes out the window at that point.

I think this is one of the things that makes balance so difficult is that so little of the game is 1v1 or even 2v2 where tiny differences in the performance of ships/weapons is critical. I honestly think it makes the use of "user metrics" very difficult as terrible solo ships/weapons can still be used in gangs where their critical shortcomings are hidden. This delays their being dropped from use and muddies the issues.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2423 - 2013-11-29 17:14:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Not always. Because of fitting stats and stacking penalties sometimes is more reasonable to add T2 Flare than a T1 Rigor.

There aren't any stacking penalties for rigors or flares, just CPU penalties. And I don't have the link handy (the discussion is somewhere at the beginning of the original RHML thread), but the way missile mechanics work is that an explosion radius smaller than the target signature will also offset target velocity to some extent, whereas flares just apply to target velocity. That's why an explosion radius bonus is worth substantially more than an explosion velocity bonus and one reason RLMLs were so deadly in certain configurations.

The problem with utilizing rigors is that while, yes - you do improve your damage application - this comes at the expense of tank. Again, something a passive/low Ballistic Enhancer would change immeasurably.

There are stacking penalties for multiple rigs (Flare or Rigor) of the same type.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2424 - 2013-11-29 17:21:13 UTC
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2425 - 2013-11-29 17:25:44 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
GlueShooz wrote:
A lot of great information in this thread but I'm not sure where you guys are getting into these big open field fights. I have two FW toons and they're getting into fights within 9 km of their opponents, frequently less than 5 km (not by my choice, that's the usual range of the inevitable pirate gank). Trying to blast your way out of a gate gank is even closer range. RLML used to be a good delivery system in pvp and pve. Now it sucks. And it's pointed straight at the Caldari.

Caldari ships are mostly missile ships. CCP nerfed the principal tool of the lighter Caldari navy.: and that's all that gets into it in most FW battles. I haven't seen BC in a plex fight yet. Was this nerf the result of the Caldari ruling in PVP? Nope. They were losing to Gallente. Apparently the Caldari just plain had it coming.

Honestly the calculations you all are making are intriguing but they have no bearing upon pvp I'm experiencing.

In PVE the RLML is now useless. You used to be able to put out a steady stream of missiles with a couple RLML's. You sacrificed range on the Drake but gained close in/frig defense. That's gone. I'm training up HAM but they're power hogs, their explosive radius is about 4x your average frigate's profile and their range is inexplicably low (a bigger missile has less range?).

The RLML nerf was excessive, unnecessary and very sided.



For PvE you'll be fine in a HAM Caracal (FWIW). The precisions plus a target painter takes out frigs fine. Mostly because they are only going 200m/s as this seems to pass for frigs "burning" at you in PvE.

As far as all the theory crafting and EFT warrior-ing you are absolutely right that it bears little resemblance to the vast majority of EVE pvp which is the primary target/gate camp victim getting blobbed by 10 guys. It all goes out the window at that point.

I think this is one of the things that makes balance so difficult is that so little of the game is 1v1 or even 2v2 where tiny differences in the performance of ships/weapons is critical. I honestly think it makes the use of "user metrics" very difficult as terrible solo ships/weapons can still be used in gangs where their critical shortcomings are hidden. This delays their being dropped from use and muddies the issues.


Yeah, I agree entirely about that, EFT is no substitute for the game, which is why I think we should give SISI a whirl. I can happily base of lot of my experience though, on Faction Warfare PVP, and if you look at my corps history, that is what I basically did with when I have been active. At the time we were Caldari only corp - what can I say - I like a challenge!

I think for the current mechanics of how Faction Warfare works, Caldari ships in particular are at disadvantage.

This is down to the fact that the Plex entrances, on either side, can be camped. Anything landing or coming in, is going to get a face full of blasters or autocannons. The Moa isn't bad in that scenario either, but sadly not many Caldari pilots have cross trained the guns for it. Overall though, Caldari leadership was terrible, with plenty of infighting (several Caldari Faction corps wardecced each other) and Gallente were better organised with better pilots. That is why they won. They are losing sov now because an organised 0.0 alliance came to town.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2426 - 2013-11-29 17:29:42 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?

This calls for nerf of cruise missile's and citadel cruise's damage application?

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2427 - 2013-11-29 17:30:44 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?


The scariest number out of these is the HAM. A HAM should not hit better in ANY scenario than a Heavy Missile, whether it is precision or not. Yet there it is.

Still, you're going to want a Bellicose in gang to make the most of the HAM's DPS potential.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2428 - 2013-11-29 17:45:47 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Not always. Because of fitting stats and stacking penalties sometimes is more reasonable to add T2 Flare than a T1 Rigor.

There aren't any stacking penalties for rigors or flares, just CPU penalties. And I don't have the link handy (the discussion is somewhere at the beginning of the original RHML thread), but the way missile mechanics work is that an explosion radius smaller than the target signature will also offset target velocity to some extent, whereas flares just apply to target velocity. That's why an explosion radius bonus is worth substantially more than an explosion velocity bonus and one reason RLMLs were so deadly in certain configurations.

There are stacking penalties for multiple rigs (Flare or Rigor) of the same type.

I was wrong on that one, there are no penalties for precision rigs but I still think fitting two T2 Rigors and one T2 Flare is better than two T2 Rigors and one T1 Rigor. Not that difference will be visible or anything.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2429 - 2013-11-29 17:48:35 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?

This calls for nerf of cruise missile's and citadel cruise's damage application?


Do you work for CCP? Because no, that is not what those numbers mean. Every one of these weapons should have close to 100% damage application against non-prop modded ships in their appropriate class.

The citadel cruise number is actually interesting as it may indicate that the Phoenix is actually in a good spot with them and that other dreads are simply too good against smaller targets.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2430 - 2013-11-29 17:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Moonaura wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?


The scariest number out of these is the HAM. A HAM should not hit better in ANY scenario than a Heavy Missile, whether it is precision or not. Yet there it is.

Still, you're going to want a Bellicose in gang to make the most of the HAM's DPS potential.


Don't know if I agree with that. I think all the close range missile systems should have slightly better damage application. That is, after all, how turrets work. So to me torps vs cruise are what's really out of whack.

Of course it is pretty clear why people are unhappy with heavy missiles when you see that they have worse damage application within their own class than citadel torps.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2431 - 2013-11-29 17:53:35 UTC
That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2432 - 2013-11-29 17:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Not always. Because of fitting stats and stacking penalties sometimes is more reasonable to add T2 Flare than a T1 Rigor.

There aren't any stacking penalties for rigors or flares, just CPU penalties. And I don't have the link handy (the discussion is somewhere at the beginning of the original RHML thread), but the way missile mechanics work is that an explosion radius smaller than the target signature will also offset target velocity to some extent, whereas flares just apply to target velocity. That's why an explosion radius bonus is worth substantially more than an explosion velocity bonus and one reason RLMLs were so deadly in certain configurations.

There are stacking penalties for multiple rigs (Flare or Rigor) of the same type.

I was wrong on that one, there are no penalties for precision rigs but I still think fitting two T2 Rigors and one T2 Flare is better than two T2 Rigors and one T1 Rigor. Not that difference will be visible or anything.

Agreed, I would point out that it won't make any substantial difference either way you go. Simply for that you will lose tank. So yea, you can hit harder but any good opponent will quickly determine that your tank is weak and exploit that weakness. That and shield rigs do also make Caldari ships (which have insanely big sig-radius compared to ships in the same class) even bigger. LOL! I would love to know whose *brilliant* idea that was.
Moonaura wrote:
That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.

Agreed and I think that you, I and multiple others have said as much at least 50-times. The issue is also that turrets will deal nearly 100% to size-intended targets in non-prop-mod scenarios within a given ammo's optimal range. Makes the issue with missile mechanics even more glaringly obvious.

*Sarcasm-sauce applied
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2433 - 2013-11-29 17:59:49 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.


Agreed on both points.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2434 - 2013-11-29 18:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Moonaura wrote:
That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.

I'd disagree on the second one. Faction torps are not too bad at doing damage to BS's (EDIT1: for PvE they struggle more with range than application) but heavy missiles (EDIT2: faction or precision, doesn't matter) are very bad at damaging cruisers.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2435 - 2013-11-29 18:27:18 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
That is a fair point, but Heavy Missiles shouldn't hit a Cruiser for so little damage either. And I also agree, Torpedos are, without question, the worst weapon platform in the game.

I'd disagree on the second one. Faction torps are not too bad at doing damage to BS's (EDIT1: for PvE they struggle more with range than application) but heavy missiles (EDIT2: faction or precision, doesn't matter) are very bad at damaging cruisers.


The issue with torps is that you have massively shorter range and with inferior damage application you are generally only doing roughly comparable damage when finally in range. Now you can put on some rigors or use a BS with application bonuses to negate that, but in the end that same ship could be using those bonuses to kill cruisers more effectively while you are doing it to simply do max damage to BS's.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2436 - 2013-11-29 18:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?


Well, to be fair I think it appears inconsistent but in actual fact the application of the various tools is different. Once you start talking Cruises and Torps in PvP (in general) you start talking about huge fleet fights and what hits Capital Ships harder etc.

They tell me torps are for Dreads and Carriers but I have not the slightest experience. I do know that in those recent huge fleet fights between Test and Goons that SB and Torps got like 50% of the kills if I remember the KMs accurately. You gotta factor in hot drops and Ewar in the Torp equation as well as Fleet mechanics.

Anyways, with the Frigates and Cruisers you are taking a range advantage and getting an applied damage reduction in trade. The problem is that HAMs do so much more dps than HML that when you combine them with their applied damage it makes them vastly better. That applied damage is also within long point range so you can actually kill something that doesn't want to stick around and die.

This is why ships that should be sporting Heavies were sporting RLML.

Lastly (to beat a dead horse) if you are sporting heavies on a cruiser you have no real defense against frigs. Other racial cruisers have far, far more with their "medium" class of weapons and drones.

This is why we need a proper balancing of RLML and HML.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2437 - 2013-11-29 18:30:43 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Here's some interesting damage application numbers to consider:

Hookbill (faction light missiles) vs Kestrel: 88.5%
Hookbill (faction rockets) vs Kestrel: 100%
Caracal (faction heavy missiles) vs Rupture: 59.5%
Caracal (faction heavy assault missiles) vs Rupture: 79.5%
Raven (faction cruise missiles) vs Apocalypse: 100%
Raven (faction torpedoes) vs Apocalypse: 85.7%
Phoenix (standard citadel cruise missiles) vs Moros: 100%
Phoenix (standard citadel torpedoes) vs Moros: 69.6%

All these numbers involve no damage application modules on ships shooting at targetsin their own class moving at top speed (without any prop mods). Can you say "lack of internal consistency"?


Those numbers will probably be a lot worse with T2 missiles instead of faction
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2438 - 2013-11-29 18:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
There are stacking penalties for multiple rigs (Flare or Rigor) of the same type.

No, there aren't.
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Stacking_penalties#What_suffers_stacking_penalties.3F

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
I was wrong on that one, there are no penalties for precision rigs but I still think fitting two T2 Rigors and one T2 Flare is better than two T2 Rigors and one T1 Rigor. Not that difference will be visible or anything.

Again, three rigors are better than two rigors and a flare. As previously stated, the missile mechanics for rigors offset target velocity when the explosion radius is smaller than the target signature. You don't get a signature bonus for flares if the explosion velocity is greater than target velocity. Rigor, rigor, rigor...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2439 - 2013-11-29 18:37:00 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:

Well, to be fair I think it appears inconsistent but in actual fact the application of the various tools is different. Once you start talking Cruises and Torps in PvP (in general) you start talking about huge fleet fights and what hits Capital Ships harder etc.


Perhaps (I don't personally agree with balancing everything around large fleet combat but that's a different topic), but it still doesn't answer the question of why heavy missiles have by far the worst damage application against same class targets in the game.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2440 - 2013-11-29 18:40:10 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
And lastly, no my friend, that 200mill isk dedicated anti-frig ship should be better than a 10 mill T1 destroyer. Why? Because the player has spent several months on the train to make that ship better than a ship a rookie with 2 weeks in game can be sporting. In case you haven't figured it out CCP made the HAC version of the Caracal to kill frigs.
Yeah, bring back AOE doomsday for titans !

Moonaura wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Also, TD, Condor and Atron like them a lot.


Yes, the first thing I did when the frigate changes came along, is fit those on there. If you also have the skills, you can use Sensor Damps instead on the Condor. Its not as good as a Maulus, and tricky to fly, but it works well.

But given you play in Faction Warfare, you know full well that an Incursus sitting at a Plex entrance can scram and web a condor before its even got its socks on. So they are pretty useless in that scenario.

A well fit rail thorax though, reckon will still kill a kiting Condor quite happily, but we can test it.

As for the range stuff you mentioned, and how your Incursus would dive in, if I double web the thorax, which is easily doable and makes up for the lost tracking computer (which I can fix with either rigs or enhancers), then your Incursus is only doing 200m/s with perfect skills. Without any propoulsion mod, the Thorax will do 300m/s, so I can, indeed control the range, and keep you where my guns hurt the most. And you can't overload for long in a frigate. Even then you only reach 254m/s, so I can still keep you at range if I want too. If I fit an AB, its very easy for me. If you fit a web as well, you can't fit a cap booster, so you can't tank for long.

Trust me, Incursus is going to die to a Thorax. 500m orbit or not.
I'm pretty sure about that : at 500m you won't hit an orbiting AB frigate. And remember the frigate have a web too. And if the frigate have a MWD, you won't catch it.

That's the thing with turret : it's either tracking or range, not both except in a narrow band at your optimale range.

Missiles can hit everything in their range without hypothesis or hope, it's a given.

About my Incursus : the fit you saw was not meant to combat against a cruiser, it's a brawling frigate fit. My fleet fit have blasters and MWD/scram/web, as should have any heavy tackling frigate IMO.