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CONCORD is a laughingstock..

Author
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2013-11-11 10:37:39 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
John Revenent wrote:
I was not aware we were competing to see who could cause the most destruction of capsuleer vessels, nor do I see its relevancy. As for Oniseki's diplomatic tongue it is far more silver then that copper edge of yours Gesakaarin-haani.


I don't know about that. She (your diplomat) seems to have a way of pissing off everyone your organization talks to, eventually. I mean, once, sure. Twice...hmm, alright. Several times? There's a common denominator here, and it isn't everyone else.


Please, do not talk for everyone.

Thank you.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#122 - 2013-11-11 11:23:53 UTC
John Revenent wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:


Oh come on, that was it? Pyre had their panties in a bunch because of an inferiority complex towards I-RED? Yes, you guys are the littler brethren, but that doesn't mean you have to throw your toys out of the pram because big sis Oniseki scolds you for childish behavior.

Children, winds...


So small we have managed to achieve almost three times their kill rate so far this month with five percent of their member-count. I'm really feeling inferior killing all these actual enemies of the State and not docked in a station in Syndicate somewhere engaging in mutual fellatio sessions of self-aggrandizement.


I was not aware we were competing to see who could cause the most destruction of capsuleer vessels, nor do I see its relevancy. As for Oniseki's diplomatic tongue it is far more silver then that copper edge of yours Gesakaarin-haani.


An implication was made that I, as a member of Pyre Falcon suffer from an inferiority complex towards an organization such as I-RED which amused me because we appear to be doing far more with far less by comparison. This is aside the fact that at least I do as I say in defense of the State -- it was your organization and diplomat that once advocated the firing upon the Shiigeru over the Homeworld only to wax lyrical about the sheer tragedy of what happened to Admiral Yanala after the fact.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#123 - 2013-11-11 12:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: John Revenent
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
An implication was made that I, as a member of Pyre Falcon suffer from an inferiority complex towards an organization such as I-RED which amused me because we appear to be doing far more with far less by comparison.


Perhaps the implication came from your defensive nature. As for the statistics difference, you may be correct. But you are also aware that Ishukone-Raata is largely a different organization.

It should also be said that even though Pyre may view our organization in a dim light at this time, Ishukone-Raata continues to acknowledge Pyre's sustained success on the war front and hope that it may continue along its destined path, even if it has diverged from ours.

Ishukone Loyalist - Private Contractor

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#124 - 2013-11-11 13:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
I'd like to point out , since the point has been raised, ( yet again ) that there is a difference between responding to a CTA and ritual suicide. As far as I-RED is concerned our Networking Officer has put it eloquently into words and I'm not inclined to expand this discussion in public.
Your collective desire for harmony should not be disturbed any further.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2013-11-11 18:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
John Revenent wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
An implication was made that I, as a member of Pyre Falcon suffer from an inferiority complex towards an organization such as I-RED which amused me because we appear to be doing far more with far less by comparison.


Perhaps the implication came from your defensive nature. As for the statistics difference, you may be correct. But you are also aware that Ishukone-Raata is largely a different organization.

It should also be said that even though Pyre may view our organization in a dim light at this time, Ishukone-Raata continues to acknowledge Pyre's sustained success on the war front and hope that it may continue along its destined path, even if it has diverged from ours.


I think that is a very good way of summing the situation up, Revenent-haan. I suppose that once Heth's top-down unifying force was removed and the need to unite to remove him was over, it was only inevitable that the usual forces at play in Caldari State politics would reassert themselves.

Could this have been done in a politer, more private and professional way? I think nobody would claim otherwise! But it clearly represents the underlying opinions of the Leadership of the two organisations in question. I blame myself - for six months now I have pursued the pipe dream of a unified front of Caldari Loyalist organisations. My new name for that desire is "Heth's Folly" - Caldari Loyalists will always unite to face external threats and they will always compete in the absence of one.

Perhaps that's the way it should be.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#126 - 2013-11-11 19:04:00 UTC
All societies do that anyway.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2013-11-11 23:22:10 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
John Revenent wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
An implication was made that I, as a member of Pyre Falcon suffer from an inferiority complex towards an organization such as I-RED which amused me because we appear to be doing far more with far less by comparison.


Perhaps the implication came from your defensive nature. As for the statistics difference, you may be correct. But you are also aware that Ishukone-Raata is largely a different organization.

It should also be said that even though Pyre may view our organization in a dim light at this time, Ishukone-Raata continues to acknowledge Pyre's sustained success on the war front and hope that it may continue along its destined path, even if it has diverged from ours.


I think that is a very good way of summing the situation up, Revenent-haan. I suppose that once Heth's top-down unifying force was removed and the need to unite to remove him was over, it was only inevitable that the usual forces at play in Caldari State politics would reassert themselves.

Could this have been done in a politer, more private and professional way? I think nobody would claim otherwise! But it clearly represents the underlying opinions of the Leadership of the two organisations in question. I blame myself - for six months now I have pursued the pipe dream of a unified front of Caldari Loyalist organisations. My new name for that desire is "Heth's Folly" - Caldari Loyalists will always unite to face external threats and they will always compete in the absence of one.

Perhaps that's the way it should be.


If division and conflict is the natural state of humanity, then what are we fighting for? The road from that route ends in anarchy, where everyone stands alone, competing with their nearby neighbors for resources.

One would think the better state of humanity would be in unity and understanding, to form as few factions as possible and to benefit from working together to maximize our resource distribution.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Vikarion
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-11-12 00:51:34 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

If division and conflict is the natural state of humanity, then what are we fighting for? The road from that route ends in anarchy, where everyone stands alone, competing with their nearby neighbors for resources.

One would think the better state of humanity would be in unity and understanding, to form as few factions as possible and to benefit from working together to maximize our resource distribution.


And this is, perhaps, the central error of your culture, as well as of Sansha's Nation. The view of unity as a wholly good thing.

The nature of evolution, of reality, is of diversity. Of different approaches to a problem. The most successful approach succeeds, obliterating the less efficient and wasteful. This does not necessarily mean the destruction of a culture or nation, but it will entail the destruction of those who hold to them. Often those are, indeed, cultures and nations.

Out of this new form new diversities are created to solve new problems. New cultures and nations arrive, compete, and fall. Technological progress is made. Better cultural and systemic practices prevail. We evolve.

To embrace a single unity of purpose, or understanding, is to embrace stagnation and decay. Only in endless cooperation and conflict is perfection found. For far too long, humans have thought of an ideal end state, where they should have thought of a perfect state of being. The perfect organism competes as hard as it can to be the best, and if its approach is not the best, assimilates the most useful one. Only in this is life found, for only in endless adaptation and growth can life be maintained.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#129 - 2013-11-12 01:09:53 UTC
And this is why the toaster nation should be destroyed?

I just remember the day CONCORD was actually emplaced by the Jove. It defended the assembly, the seats of power, but moreso defended their investment of the capsule, which they gave to all four of the races.

CONCORD since then has sponsored the pursuit of the assembly's enemies but rarely ever put its name on the line to call forces from their investment. For that would ruin ultimately the view they've emplaced themselves to be.

Yet recently, it seems like there's been an inside change of heart in CONCORD, they've turned short-sighted, corrupt within their now non-Jovian management. As if the Minmatar's attack on them destroyed their own sense of purpose.

Perhaps CONCORD really has fallen...

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2013-11-12 04:53:43 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

If division and conflict is the natural state of humanity, then what are we fighting for? The road from that route ends in anarchy, where everyone stands alone, competing with their nearby neighbors for resources.

One would think the better state of humanity would be in unity and understanding, to form as few factions as possible and to benefit from working together to maximize our resource distribution.


And this is, perhaps, the central error of your culture, as well as of Sansha's Nation. The view of unity as a wholly good thing.

The nature of evolution, of reality, is of diversity. Of different approaches to a problem. The most successful approach succeeds, obliterating the less efficient and wasteful. This does not necessarily mean the destruction of a culture or nation, but it will entail the destruction of those who hold to them. Often those are, indeed, cultures and nations.

Out of this new form new diversities are created to solve new problems. New cultures and nations arrive, compete, and fall. Technological progress is made. Better cultural and systemic practices prevail. We evolve.

To embrace a single unity of purpose, or understanding, is to embrace stagnation and decay. Only in endless cooperation and conflict is perfection found. For far too long, humans have thought of an ideal end state, where they should have thought of a perfect state of being. The perfect organism competes as hard as it can to be the best, and if its approach is not the best, assimilates the most useful one. Only in this is life found, for only in endless adaptation and growth can life be maintained.


I tend to disagree. There is a difference between the rational exchange of ideas under polite circumstances, especially with proper perspective, and working against your own interests. There is nothing to be served here that could not be served by dialogue, or at the very least agreeing to disagree. The idea that any people should harm relations over argumentation does not seem as though it is going to make the state, nor either of your positions, any more tenable. Nor are either of you likely to learn anything from the experience. Instead, it will simply reinforce your respective positions unto each other, allowing you to avoid deciding on a certain path.

Our culture is not nearly so impenetrable as it may seem. Conflicting ideas are debated and examined from every angle until we have determined either that both can coexist harmoniously, or that the better idea is chosen. One would hardly say nothing has politically happened in our stagnated empire, especially considering the last few years.

Perhaps you have viewed this from the wrong angle. If you are looking to learn and expand as a culture, surely the way to do that would not involve simply separating into smaller groups because you can't possibly work out a decent exchange of ideas. In that way, in division and warfare, lies at best the stagnation you decry and at worst the possibility that those with the wrong ideas will prevail due to sheer luck or mitigating circumstances. In division lays the option to avoid the more difficult process of deliberation, teaching, and learning.

In short, perhaps you think we are simply a megalith that hasn't changed in a few thousand years, but we have precisely the same, if not more, differences of opinion than you do. We simply have a code of civics to handle that sort of thing in polite society without severely weakening our internal harmony. Perhaps this is why I view the unfolding process with such trepidation. Surely, there is a process or system in place that keeps militant factions within the Caldari State from turning their noses up at each other over such relatively small causes.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#131 - 2013-11-12 06:44:44 UTC
Soldiers are sometimes not the gentlest of creatures, Father.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#132 - 2013-11-12 12:27:43 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

In short, perhaps you think we are simply a megalith that hasn't changed in a few thousand years, but we have precisely the same, if not more, differences of opinion than you do. We simply have a code of civics to handle that sort of thing in polite society without severely weakening our internal harmony. Perhaps this is why I view the unfolding process with such trepidation. Surely, there is a process or system in place that keeps militant factions within the Caldari State from turning their noses up at each other over such relatively small causes.


Conflict and competition is what it truly means to be Caldari. The pursuit of perfection demands nothing less. The desire to be the best, the strongest, to prevail over our weakness through continued struggle are virtues to be admired. Anything less should be regarded with the greatest of contempt and derision.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2013-11-12 13:26:41 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Soldiers are sometimes not the gentlest of creatures, Father.


Perhaps not, Pieter, but I suppose I've always regarded the greatest soldiers to also be possessed of great chivalry and discipline, full of grace rather than pride. That, in order to truly protect something rather than serving your own interests as a soldier, that you needed a perspective where pride is objectified and the greater good is held as paramount, rather than the other way around.

Otherwise, we aren't better than sea slugs in an evolutionary arms race to eat eat other faster. The reason humanity has advanced into spaceflight and scientific achievement is because, though we still bear the burden of combat, we can work together to achieve amazing things. When your only impetus for growth is to eat, you cannot be blamed for never achieving anything greater as a species than the common crocodile.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#134 - 2013-11-12 15:31:33 UTC
It's my job to protect the Achur monasteries. Does that mean I have to understand what the monks understand when they achieve the enlightenment of meditation? It's my job to protect the cargo handler, does it mean I have to understand his feeling of peace when he sits down for dinner with the family he's successfully provided for, not five jumps from things that would kill him for amusement if we didn't hold the line?

I'm not sure what I'd be without my loyalty to the State and my fierce pride in my kirjuun - people who've come to mean more to me than my sibkin. Perhaps I'm not a very good diplomat. Perhaps I'm not a very good person. Maybe I'm not even a very good citizen anymore.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#135 - 2013-11-12 15:57:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's my job to protect the Achur monasteries. Does that mean I have to understand what the monks understand when they achieve the enlightenment of meditation? It's my job to protect the cargo handler, does it mean I have to understand his feeling of peace when he sits down for dinner with the family he's successfully provided for, not five jumps from things that would kill him for amusement if we didn't hold the line?

I'm not sure what I'd be without my loyalty to the State and my fierce pride in my kirjuun - people who've come to mean more to me than my sibkin. Perhaps I'm not a very good diplomat. Perhaps I'm not a very good person. Maybe I'm not even a very good citizen anymore.


You don't seem too far off of true north to me.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#136 - 2013-11-12 17:33:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's my job to protect the Achur monasteries. Does that mean I have to understand what the monks understand when they achieve the enlightenment of meditation? It's my job to protect the cargo handler, does it mean I have to understand his feeling of peace when he sits down for dinner with the family he's successfully provided for, not five jumps from things that would kill him for amusement if we didn't hold the line?

I'm not sure what I'd be without my loyalty to the State and my fierce pride in my kirjuun - people who've come to mean more to me than my sibkin. Perhaps I'm not a very good diplomat. Perhaps I'm not a very good person. Maybe I'm not even a very good citizen anymore.


Pieter, do you think I'd be trying to explain this to you if I thought you were a poor diplomat, bad person, or a bad citizen? The fact is, you don't have to do any of those things. Honestly, I think you do anyway. If you were just another soldier, I'd have written off the entire scenario as more of the sort of corporate politicking that I was somewhat tired of in grade school. I think you're capable of being a cut above that sort of thing.

You probably don't get much practice, so your skills seem atrophied, but you do seem to have them. Unlike most people involved in the military pursuits I've expressed less than positive views on, I have much more respect for you as a person. You would have made a fine citizen, soldier, and person no matter what empire you'd been born into.

With all of that said, I can't agree with some of the Caldari State's most important actors being shaken apart from within by what amounts to an argument that has simply grown out of control. It takes no strength nor effort to simply flow over the rapids with the current. It takes strength to swim against it to firm ground, where you can stand unaffected.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#137 - 2013-11-12 18:18:05 UTC
Father Baracca; for all the acrimonious discussion here, and for all my (and others') concern about division and divisive words, the simple truth is that factionalism is to be expected. In times of relative calm, our ideological differences are highlighted; it's only when there is a significant, new threat from outside the State that we put aside those differences and serve the common good.

To borrow the analogy, there are surely stones beneath the water, causing froth and tumult; but the river always reaches the sea.

Further, I don't believe that unity or division will carry on to absolutes, nor should they. We profit by both competition and cooperative action; else, corporate society would never arise, encapsulating both the need to compete to excel in the market or in war, and the need to work cooperatively to achieve more than we may achieve alone. The balance between these will shift over time; it's natural that any equilibrium will be changed by the conditions in which it exists.

For all my concern, for all my love of a certain story, and for all that PYRE and Ishuk-Raata relations have cooled, there will be little more that comes of this.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2013-11-12 23:04:19 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Father Baracca; for all the acrimonious discussion here, and for all my (and others') concern about division and divisive words, the simple truth is that factionalism is to be expected. In times of relative calm, our ideological differences are highlighted; it's only when there is a significant, new threat from outside the State that we put aside those differences and serve the common good.

To borrow the analogy, there are surely stones beneath the water, causing froth and tumult; but the river always reaches the sea.

Further, I don't believe that unity or division will carry on to absolutes, nor should they. We profit by both competition and cooperative action; else, corporate society would never arise, encapsulating both the need to compete to excel in the market or in war, and the need to work cooperatively to achieve more than we may achieve alone. The balance between these will shift over time; it's natural that any equilibrium will be changed by the conditions in which it exists.

For all my concern, for all my love of a certain story, and for all that PYRE and Ishuk-Raata relations have cooled, there will be little more that comes of this.


Ah, for the day that the water all reaches the sea and we forget about these antics.

I do question whether competition really does generate better results than discussing good ways forward and, perhaps, trying both ways to see which has more positive results. It would seem that resources wasted competing are resources wasted competing.

A good analysis of the situation actually came from a Caldari gentleman I've been having a back-and-forth discussion with. Advertising costs companies giant streams of revenue, revenue which would have been pure profit. Now, some companies that advertise literally have no reason to advertise save for competition, because their names are well known enough but they have significant, equally viable alternatives to contend with. Now, if those companies decided to not advertise, all as one, they would save an incredible amount of money, money they might be able to put back into their product itself. They would all be better off if that were the case, especially if they collaborated into a larger company and only contended with the customers' willingness to buy.

However, if just one company advertises, that company gains an unfair advantage. That means all companies will waste money on pointless advertisements, most of which will simply be blinking boxes in our peripheral vision that we won't bother with, simply because they can't allow anyone an advantage.

So it seems to be with capsuleer corporations (hardly a phenomenon exclusive to any race). Everyone would be better off if we decided to set aside our more petty disagreements and focus on the multitude of external threats. In their bungling, ineffective way, CONCORD was at least trying to do just that, and their failure seems to be based on capsuleer corporations' inherent ability to step on each others' toes without excellent, unifying leadership. I don't think the corporations are better off competing with each other when pirate organizations can still exist outside their space with impunity and strike nearly at whim. The only reason we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot seems to be that we can't all suddenly, as civilized people, stop sneering at each other long enough to realize we have groups literally farming us for our blood and stealing our children.

I suppose my contention is that we aren't short on external threats to unify against, and those external threats certainly require quite a bit more unity to erase from existence. Surely, they would be able to confront groups like the Guristas on a more coordinated and effective level if they could act as one State rather than roosters in a pit.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#139 - 2013-11-12 23:46:49 UTC
I believe the theory goes that it is better for the State to consist of eight competing ideologies than a single monolithic ideology that, if vulnerable, might risk the entire of the State being consumed by some outside competitor.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-11-12 23:56:57 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I believe the theory goes that it is better for the State to consist of eight competing ideologies than a single monolithic ideology that, if vulnerable, might risk the entire of the State being consumed by some outside competitor.



I thought the prevailing way great empires were defeated was through "divide and conquer?"

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26