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Does WAR make players leave Eve?

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-11-06 18:32:45 UTC
Easy solution. Remove high-sec...problem solved. If you want complete peace, stay in NPC corp or play WoW or its clones

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Anomaly One
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-11-06 18:37:43 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I think that corporations should revolve around war more. Now, I don't mean that I think there should be more wars, I mean that anything done in the corp UI (joining a corp, creating a corp, managing the bulletins or MoTD, etc, etc) should be a constant reminder that war is looming. That way no one is going to freak out when it happens.

The whole war issue is an issue of educating the playerbase. If you can't defending your corporation you shouldn't have made it and recruited members in the first place. If people understood this then war would be more interesting for all involved. There would be less small corps, and more corps would have measures in place for during war time, and the defenders would enjoy it more because they are prepared, and the aggressors might get the occasional fight as it should be.


EXACTLY!

when I started off I mined I stayed in NPC corps because I knew I had no way to defend myself but I had a goal to make my own corp and when I was trained sufficiently in the right skills and pvped a bit I made my own corp because I can defend it if I choose to.

I think disbanding a corp should have more consequence, wars should be something more important than what they are now.
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-11-06 18:38:43 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

You mentioned Dr. Strangelove ... I just gave you the right quote from the movie... relax dude.


Yeah, that’s what I mean; you gave the ‘right’ quote when I hadn’t in anyway attempted to quote the film which seems a strange thing to do.


Velicitia wrote:

No, there's not ... but if you know that bringing all 100 dudes in your corp will get them do dock up, don't bring all 100.

Set up smaller gangs (say 10)



If you know the maximum size that the enemy force can be and can easily match it then it seems a little more than daft to bring a smaller force – the aggressor chose a war against a ridiculous number of players, it isn’t the defenders duty to roll over and die in some bizarre gesture of sympathy.

I can’t say that I have read ‘The art of War’ but I’m assuming that ‘have less guns than the enemy’ isn’t a quote.

Velicitia wrote:

- roam looking for WTs who think they're "safe" because you're a mining corp -> have killed several people this way (probed them in their mission).
- if you can't probe their mission, just watch the gate(s) that they have to go through to get "home"


It’s generally accepted that no one that declares war in high sec leaves high sec, obviously there are places to go to do other things, but that isn’t fighting a war. We have guns, ships, ammunition and people but an aggressor that refuses to be in any way aggressive.
A war system where both parties in the war go to great lengths to avoid each other for the duration is not edge of your seat game play, its boring.

Velicitia wrote:


Mining -> you don't need a huge fleet to "defend". Yeah, you might need a big fleet to actually curb-stomp them, but a handful of hero tackle and griffins/falcons will let the guys mining GTFO (some miners may die to alpha, but that's what skiffs are for).

Missions -> better than ship spinning (debatable -- I'd rather ship spin).

Trade/Mfg -> happens in station yes, but can still get messed up.


I think you are basically confirming boredom.

Velicitia wrote:


I mean it seems you've got this hard limit of "no war = do whatever the hell you want" and "war = all PVP all the time". It's not like that -- wars just allow CONCORD-free combat between two parties.

Wouldn't you agree that it is more damaging to their morale (and boosting to yours) to see your corporation flipping them the bird and continuing to do whatever while still under the "duress" of a war?



I think you mean wouldn’t it be nice if we just undocked in defenceless ships so the ‘l33t’ pvp’ers can get their risk free kills and frankly no, we would like to shoot the enemy a lot during a war. We all have to suffer the inconvenience, so it doesn’t seem unreasonable that we should all get to shoot at them. The aggressor opted for the odds to be against them and if they are punching above their weight then they should have to suffer the consequences, there should be an element of risk for them.

War should be damaging to the corps involved.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#104 - 2013-11-06 18:39:32 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.


This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#105 - 2013-11-06 18:41:27 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
CCP has made a lot of changes, some good and some bad. Stating CCP has made some changes does not support or give validity to the idea of changing a fundamental part of the game.

Not only that, no one has shown proof that you have large numbers of player leaving the game.

All that has been brought forward is a bunch of "I knew this one guy who had a friend that watched his cousin rage quit because someone ganked his buddies ship...and it was just not fair."

This entire thread has been is a big social agenda sandy va jay jay rant.
Not empty quoting.

I guess what would really help the game is kicking all the wannabe white-knights out of it.
Right next to all the morons who specifically target noobs and, to make sure it's done properly,
all the vets in starter corps giving new players bad advises.


+1 spacelike for you, good sir.

I still remember my first forays into lowsec (and dying horribly) ... and then getting convo'd by (or maybe convo'ing) the person who saved my terribly fit frigate from itself. Alas, killmail changes and new computers have destroyed the convo and record...

it boiled down to the simple things :

1. Dual tanking is bad
2. Shields on a tristan is bad
3. Try this fit, and when you get into a cruiser ... this is a nice 'rax fit.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#106 - 2013-11-06 18:42:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.


This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.


That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#107 - 2013-11-06 18:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Velicitia wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
CCP has made a lot of changes, some good and some bad. Stating CCP has made some changes does not support or give validity to the idea of changing a fundamental part of the game.

Not only that, no one has shown proof that you have large numbers of player leaving the game.

All that has been brought forward is a bunch of "I knew this one guy who had a friend that watched his cousin rage quit because someone ganked his buddies ship...and it was just not fair."

This entire thread has been is a big social agenda sandy va jay jay rant.
Not empty quoting.

I guess what would really help the game is kicking all the wannabe white-knights out of it.
Right next to all the morons who specifically target noobs and, to make sure it's done properly,
all the vets in starter corps giving new players bad advises.


+1 spacelike for you, good sir.

I still remember my first forays into lowsec (and dying horribly) ... and then getting convo'd by (or maybe convo'ing) the person who saved my terribly fit frigate from itself. Alas, killmail changes and new computers have destroyed the convo and record...

it boiled down to the simple things :

1. Dual tanking is bad
2. Shields on a tristan is bad
3. Try this fit, and when you get into a cruiser ... this is a nice 'rax fit.


To add to this:

EDIT: Inappropriate kill mail removed.
Forum rule 34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
ISD Tyrozan


Did I leave....nope.

I was mad when it happened. Now a days I just look at it as a very very expensive lesson learned when I was a noob. The people who leave cause of the wars, they just dont have the correct mindset for EVE in the first place.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-11-06 18:54:59 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.


This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.


That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.


And now look at the progress of subs for EVE over the last decade, they only went up each and every year with the only significant drop around Monocle-gate.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Cyborg 497
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-11-06 19:09:24 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.


This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.


That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.


Too true!

Funny how some of the pro-wardec mob argue with little intelligence:
If people leave then they weren't suited for Eve anyway
You're selfish because you wanna help others
Why is this thread still going.... I can't take it!!
CCP should never take into account making the game more popular


I like listening to both sides, so if the pro-wardec mob have anything intelligent to say then say it. Don't whine and resort to bashing valid points made from other posters, just answer them with a good argument!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#110 - 2013-11-06 19:09:52 UTC

Upon reading what you said again I see you weren't actually quoting the movie (I read it originally as you trying to quote the movie with "you can't fight this is war" )... but that's neither here nor there.. (pulled out the quote because "5 times per reply" rule... )


Pap Uhotih wrote:


If you know the maximum size that the enemy force can be and can easily match it then it seems a little more than daft to bring a smaller force – the aggressor chose a war against a ridiculous number of players, it isn’t the defenders duty to roll over and die in some bizarre gesture of sympathy.

I can’t say that I have read ‘The art of War’ but I’m assuming that ‘have less guns than the enemy’ isn’t a quote.


Who said anything about rolling over and dying? You're looking for a fight, and apparently bringing your full fleet to the party results in them hiding, so bring a smaller fleet to entice them out.

Using your numbers for attackers and defenders:
ATK = 20; DEF = 100; result = no fight
ATK = 20; DEF = 50; result = probably not
ATK = 20; DEF = 20; result = 50/50
ATK = 20; DEF = 10; result = decent chance of a fight
ATK = 20; DEF = 6; The enemy outnumbers us by a paltry three to one. (result = It's a trap!)

Seriously, I'm not saying "only have n pilots available" but that you will have a much higher chance of getting that fight you so desperately want if your whole defence plan isn't just "5:1 in our favor".

Pap Uhotih wrote:

It’s generally accepted that no one that declares war in high sec leaves high sec, obviously there are places to go to do other things, but that isn’t fighting a war. We have guns, ships, ammunition and people but an aggressor that refuses to be in any way aggressive.
A war system where both parties in the war go to great lengths to avoid each other for the duration is not edge of your seat game play, its boring.


Um, I said "take the fight to them" (with the caveat of "well, if you can't probe them, then camp the return gate"). Seriously, it's not all that uncommon to see hised "wardec corps" do the dec, and then act as if nothing changes for them (because they're usually hunting mining corps who cannot or will not fight back). Got a 'cane that way once ...

Quote:

I think you are basically confirming boredom.


Because I'm advocating that a corp who has been dec'd should do things to allow them to attempt to go about "normal business" ? Yeah, doing those things isn't the awesome 2,000 man engagements that happen in KW- ... but it's still better than "do nothing"


Quote:

I think you mean wouldn’t it be nice if we just undocked in defenceless ships so the ‘l33t’ pvp’ers can get their risk free kills and frankly no, we would like to shoot the enemy a lot during a war. We all have to suffer the inconvenience, so it doesn’t seem unreasonable that we should all get to shoot at them. The aggressor opted for the odds to be against them and if they are punching above their weight then they should have to suffer the consequences, there should be an element of risk for them.

War should be damaging to the corps involved.



what the ... I don't even?

Where did you come to the conclusion that I want to see people undock in only defenseless things?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#111 - 2013-11-06 19:13:31 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

To add to this:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8419886


Did I leave....nope.

I was mad when it happened. Now a days I just look at it as a very very expensive lesson learned when I was a noob. The people who leave cause of the wars, they just dont have the correct mindset for EVE in the first place.

ShockedPLEXShocked

got a good haul that time ... hope someone was able to scoop the loot (or at least the PLEX) and get them back to station...

ISD might not like the KM linking ... even though it is yours.Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#112 - 2013-11-06 19:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
J'Poll wrote:

And now look at the progress of subs for EVE over the last decade, they only went up each and every year with the only significant drop around Monocle-gate.


Then I guess that chart would match up nicely to a chart of the nerfs CCP has implemented to better protect new players.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-11-06 19:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Velicitia wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

To add to this:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8419886


Did I leave....nope.

I was mad when it happened. Now a days I just look at it as a very very expensive lesson learned when I was a noob. The people who leave cause of the wars, they just dont have the correct mindset for EVE in the first place.

ShockedPLEXShocked

got a good haul that time ... hope someone was able to scoop the loot (or at least the PLEX) and get them back to station...

ISD might not like the KM linking ... even though it is yours.Blink



Well if ISD doesnt like me posting a ridiculous loss...of myself, so be it.

I used it to show that bad things happen, they way you respond to it, that tells what kind of player you are.
I shrugged it off (eventually) as a stupid loss and learned never to ships stuff like that around like an idiot.
And it makes a great example to new players why you shouldnt carry a PLEX and what happens if you do.


Edit:

Reported my own post to make ISD aware about the reasons why I posted the killmail.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Velicitia
XS Tech
#114 - 2013-11-06 19:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
J'Poll wrote:

Well if ISD doesnt like me posting a ridiculous loss...of myself, so be it.


yeah they're kinda "letter of the law" and not "spirit of the law" in ISD (which is unfortunate). Hopefully the won't wig out too much.

Also, next time you're gonna undock with PLEX, mind letting me know? Pirate


edit - agree, hopefully telling them "seriously, I'm making fun of myself to make a point" will keep them from censoring it.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#115 - 2013-11-06 19:44:23 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Mythrandier wrote:

No, you have merely spouted strawman arguments back up by nothing more than your opinion, hyperbole and ad hominem attacks.

But carry with your smug self importance. I find it rather amusing given your posts utter lack of content. :)


Hmm. No, I have not.

Making baseless statements like the one you made above requires no effort, so my reply reflects that. If you can't be bothered to back up your accusations with citations and a sound argument, then why bother to post? Were your feelings hurt or something?


Yes, yes you have.

Its not baseless at all. As I said in a previous post, I have seen what happens when a games company that produces a niche game tries to make the game mainstream. In fact, I've seen it happen twice to games I loved, Red Orchestra and SWG.

You simply chose to ignore this, as you have done with every other valid point raised.

You keep touting that CCP is a company that needs to make money, do you honestly think there is one person reading this thread who needs that pointed out to them?

Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2013-11-06 19:46:50 UTC
Mythrandier wrote:


Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.



This ^^^ a thousand times this ^^^
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#117 - 2013-11-06 19:47:58 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
If they leave because of a basic game mechanic, then it's no loss.


This

If anything another player can do (within the EULA of course) can get a person to quit, then the quitter wasn't EVE stock to begin with.


That's a wonderful perspective. Now look at the situation from the perspective of a gaming company which would, you know, kinda like to be a successful business and could use the sub money... to do stuff...and things... like pay their employees.


They've been paying their employees for 10 years when many MMOs (that protected the dainty Egos of it's players by not allowing the things EVE online does) had shut their doors. CCP is still paying it's employees.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#118 - 2013-11-06 19:52:52 UTC
Mythrandier wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Mythrandier wrote:

No, you have merely spouted strawman arguments back up by nothing more than your opinion, hyperbole and ad hominem attacks.

But carry with your smug self importance. I find it rather amusing given your posts utter lack of content. :)


Hmm. No, I have not.

Making baseless statements like the one you made above requires no effort, so my reply reflects that. If you can't be bothered to back up your accusations with citations and a sound argument, then why bother to post? Were your feelings hurt or something?


Yes, yes you have.

Its not baseless at all. As I said in a previous post, I have seen what happens when a games company that produces a niche game tries to make the game mainstream. In fact, I've seen it happen twice to games I loved, Red Orchestra and SWG.

You simply chose to ignore this, as you have done with every other valid point raised.

You keep touting that CCP is a company that needs to make money, do you honestly think there is one person reading this thread who needs that pointed out to them?

Eve has survived as long as it has and done as well as it has because it offers something that no other MMO since the days of Ultima does, actual risk to you in game assets. You want to take that away an thus remove from EvE the one thing that makes me and many other keep logging in.


Perfectly well said.

These short sighted people just THINK they want to rmove these things, yet they stay playing EVE when most other games don't even have the things they ay they hate.

i think that these folks usually just look for things to make themselves feel better about failing at a video game, so they blame the game to the point of asking the developers to change it.

Which leads to the most ironic situation imaginable: If CCP were to totally change the game to cater to these weak shortsighted people, those same people would eventually leave becuase "it's not the EVE they fell in love with" while the hard core players they hate would stay and adapt.....

I just realized that changing the game the way they want would be a great thing as ti would get rid of these folks. Come on CCP, make totallysafe high sec so we can get one with it!
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-11-06 20:44:10 UTC
Dudley Schwartz wrote:
Random idea: would it be a good idea to change the war mechanics, so that PVP corps/alliances can only war dec each other?
When you create a corp you choose to register your corp either as a combat corp ( actively looking for PVP ) or industrial corp.

I don't think industrialists should be immune to being attacked ( at least they can still be ganked etc ).
It is unfair for genuine industrial corps who choose not to PVP and are not interested in the PVP side if eve to be subject to prolonged grief, by PVP'ers who are searching for that easy kill.

Every player should have the option to choose how they want to play the game. Some players log in and want to PVP/PVE; some choose to mine ( each to their own is a good philosophy ).

A more direct answer to your question "does war make players leave eve?" In the case of high sec industrial corps being subject to prolonged grief by PVP'ers, then yes.

What is your opinion?



So, being in this position, I can answer...

I been around a couple months now. I resisted joining a corp in hi-sec as I knew it would make me a target. Eventually, I jumped in. I think I got wardec'd the following week. I had begun EvE doing all the paranoid things a pilot should do. Making bookmarks, aligning when I mine. Fitting tanks to my barges and haulers. Using alt haulers. Being in an NPC corp made most of this completely unecessary. So I sat there. Running missions, burning rocks, building stuff. Occasionally I got myself blown upBig smile. Point is, I had my little carebear themepark. It got boring real quick.

Then the war came. Everthing changed. This man said it best:

Khergit Deserters wrote:
If you're in a newbie corp and get wardecced, you just have to be patient. The wardec will go away someday. Sure, being almost powerless against more experienced, shinier-shipped wardeccers is kind of frustrating and humiliating. But on the other hand, the challenge is really interesting. I can remember some excellent war room strategy discussions among my newb corp members. Much more interesting than discussing ship fits, L4 missions tactics, etc. In the end dealing with the wardec made the corp leadership smarter and made us tighter overall as a team. And the guys who were just in it for themselves left the corp. That was an added bonus.


In the opening week a guy got podded in a rookie ship. A couple T2 barges got whacked. People griped, but they learned. An enemy diplomat offered us a payoff to end the war, we said no. War continues. Losses continue. We are figuring a way to hit back, learning our, and our enemy's cababilities.

It came down to one moment for me. I was on a belt, eyes glued to local, spaming D-Scan when a war target popped into system. My heart started pounding, being aligned, I hit warp and my little barge crawled up to speed. I can still see the blinky red ship warping in on my AO just as I entered warp. All my paranoia paid off, and what a rush!!! I even got away with it a second time the same day. Though I have to say, I shouldn't have gotten away the second time. I was too slow. I said to myself it is over but they dropped the ball. No scram, no web. They either got cocky or lazy. Shame on them.

War added a whole new dimension to my game play. It makes Eve what it is. If I want to burn rocks I should be at the same risk as everyone else. Bumping. Ganking. War. Creating an inherent "safe zone" would go against everything that makes Eve what it is. Being immune to a war dec would have made me quit the game. I got away that day because I was ready. I was rewarded for my game play. I continue to be rewarded for my evolving game play.

Yours is a terrible idea, sir.

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Velicitia
XS Tech
#120 - 2013-11-06 21:17:57 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
(stuff)



You will do well here. Carry on.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia