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Does WAR make players leave Eve?

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#61 - 2013-11-06 13:27:21 UTC
Pap Uhotih wrote:
(stuff)


You make some good points here, but you're going about it wrong. You don't pull out all 100 of your dudes to fight 20 (well, you can, but they'll hide).

Here's what you (should) be doing when a war crops up:

1. no flying solo anywhere, excepting obvious things (scouts jump first). but otherwise look disorganized.
2. make your losses inexpensive (but still fit effectively) -- e.g. if a lot of your guys are goon in frigs/dessies, fly those (pilots "good" in cruisers/bc can act as heavy muscle). You can lose a lot more well-fit frigates for the same price as a poorly fit battleship
3. taking notes on who the "good" pilots are -- see if they wanna start being FCs.

Now, "being prepared for war" isn't something that should be done in the 24 hours leading up to a war, but it should be done all the time. Buying or building 30 frigates is a lot easier on resources over the course of 3 months than in 24 hours ... knowing some "generic" fits that will go onto a ship, so you can counter it (e.g. a rifter will have autocannons and an AB ... so use artillery, a long point, and kite him)...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#62 - 2013-11-06 13:34:32 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:


EvE is a GAME about a dystopian universe. CCP is a business. Part of being in business is attempting to attract, and retain, paying customers. Ads are about painting a picture for a potential customer to draw them in. It is not a contract, nor an all-inclusive description.

Money belonging to dumb people spends just as well as money belonging to smart people. Again, meeting customer expectations is part of being in business. Some of their customers want it one way, some want it another. Making both groups happy is the goal.



Which, would you say, is more important? Getting in new players or retaining the player base that has continued to grow year on year since release? Given how fickle most gamers are, I know where I would put my money if I were CEO of CCP.

Because the risk here is that if they try to make "EvE for the dumb" then the not-pants-on-head-******** existing player base will just leave. The player base that CCP has grown here is very niche and play this game simply because there is nothing out that comes close to the visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE.

I, for one, do not want another WoW in space clone thank you so very much indeedy.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Clone Blank
Steel and Iron Fist Regiment
#63 - 2013-11-06 13:35:40 UTC
What I see is people who have played the game a lot picking on people who are new or haven't got the money to buy the ships to fight back!
So I think they should make it harder for them to do that they did it b4 but it isn't right ATM. Its pretty obvious.......
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#64 - 2013-11-06 13:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
As always, the answer depends. It's a matter of perspective.

Our Alliance is always decced by a couple of other alliances. Our PVP oriented 'veterans' shrug, they are holed up in lowsec so all a wardec does is remove sentry gun mechanics. They can adopt a "come at me bro" stance because most wardeccing parties do not enter lowsec in the first place. To the newbie that has little experience, a war is likely more harrowing and can indeed be very frustrating, up to a point where undocking in hisec doesn't make any logical sense because the outcome is a known negative.

Pap Uhotih wrote:
Essentially if you organise your corp to fight in a high sec war all you are doing is asking them to log into Eve and do nothing.

Pap Uhotih makes a good point. Act defensively when wardecced and the agressor will just keep docked, which is even more boring then going about your business as usual and get picked off. With some very rare exeptions hisec wardeccers are risk averse vermin that specificly target newbies that can't fight back to any competative degree. My solution is to entice new corpmates to come fight with the wolves in lowsec (while getting some SRP because what we do actually matters to the corp) and let the hyenas in hisec go about their pointless goose chase.
To Be Me
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-11-06 13:49:37 UTC
I still dont understand the point of this thread and what are you all talking about.

The game has wars, this is how the game is.


Now do you want to play it or not its up to you. You are welcome to leave if you want.


Whats the point of this thread?

thumbs up if you like :))))
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#66 - 2013-11-06 13:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
The problem, I think, is not with the war declaration mechanic. It is with the expectations of player corporation's members and CEOs in highsec.

It should be made clear to everyone who starts or joins a corporation, that they need to be willing to defend it or that they need to ensure their CEO has measures in place to protect their members. Potential members should be asking what protocols are in place for war times and CEO's should be putting procedures in place. I think it's a matter of education. If every person who started a corp was told that they would need a way of defending themselves then they would either join another corp (there are already too many small 2 man corps) or would put serious effort into protection. Some times, it is as simple as a CEO having another director who is willing to take control during times of war or having a sister corporation willing to aid in protection and education. I have acted as that person/corp regularly and got fantastic results.

I have been on the attacking and defending side of wars, and they can be really boring, or they can be exciting and educational. It depends entirely on the corporation's management, and frankly potential CEOs need to be aware of that. What I do agree with, is that something needs to be done. It would be nice if defending corps were given some kind of assistance.

I feel like I could continue to write indefinitely about highsec war, there is just so much to cover. But I will leave it there for now.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#67 - 2013-11-06 14:15:09 UTC
2 man corps? I had one of those until I caught my alt trying to AWOX me... I booted him and he ragequit. Now I have no alt.
Now at least I don't have to listen to weak excuses about not being able to help with corp activities, nor do I need to worry about whether or not I'll have backup if it hits the fan.
Even so, in all seriousness, I maintain a personal corp for the purposes of helping to keep me accountable for my own actions and words, in game, and on the forums. I'm an adult, or so they tell me, and I'll face the consequences of what I bring upon myself. Personally, I'm of the opinion that NPC corps should be able to be wardecced, either that or individuals should be able to be decced. EVE isn't a game for the kiddies, there are plenty of those out there. As matters stand the NPC corps serve as havens for too many screaming monkeys who don't want to face the consequences of flinging poo. This is the thing that is broken. Rampant asshattery without consequences is simply cultural decay in action.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#68 - 2013-11-06 14:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Mythrandier wrote:
Which, would you say, is more important? Getting in new players or retaining the player base that has continued to grow year on year since release? Given how fickle most gamers are, I know where I would put my money if I were CEO of CCP.

Because the risk here is that if they try to make "EvE for the dumb" then the not-pants-on-head-******** existing player base will just leave. The player base that CCP has grown here is very niche and play this game simply because there is nothing out that comes close to the visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE.

I, for one, do not want another WoW in space clone thank you so very much indeedy.


I would say that both kinds of customers are important, as they both represent income. You seem to be under the impression that this is a black or white choice. That is a False Dilemma.

However, if you are advocating that CCP simply ignore the economic reality that they must have a constant stream of new players to stay in business, then you are deluded. CCP MUST have new players coming in. It is absurd to pretend that it is possible to retain their entire player base indefinitely as that's just not how MMOs are. Players/customers leave. They must be replaced.

I believe it is possible to retain the "visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE" while providing some protection to "the other" customers who have reasonable expectations about the game they pay for.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#69 - 2013-11-06 14:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mythrandier
Princess Bride wrote:


~words~




You seem to be under the impression that this game can be the PvP sandbox its advertised as and Hello Kitty Island Adventure at the same time. That’s simply not possible, there is no false dilemma here.

I honestly don’t see how it is possible to introduce yet more protection (high sec safety has been buffed so many times already) without essentially breaking the cold harsh world that is EvE.


Princess Bride wrote:


However, if you are advocating that CCP simply ignore the economic reality that they must have a constant stream of new players to stay in business, then you are deluded. CCP MUST have new players coming in. It is absurd to pretend that it is possible to retain their entire player base indefinitely as that's just not how MMOs are. Players/customers leave. They must be replaced.



I agree. How ever given that EvE has grown, every year since its launch (a claim no other MMO can make) you are simply creating a lovely Strawman argument.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Anthar Thebess
#70 - 2013-11-06 14:34:02 UTC
NO, war is fun.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2013-11-06 14:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Princess Bride wrote:
Mythrandier wrote:
Which, would you say, is more important? Getting in new players or retaining the player base that has continued to grow year on year since release? Given how fickle most gamers are, I know where I would put my money if I were CEO of CCP.

Because the risk here is that if they try to make "EvE for the dumb" then the not-pants-on-head-******** existing player base will just leave. The player base that CCP has grown here is very niche and play this game simply because there is nothing out that comes close to the visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE.

I, for one, do not want another WoW in space clone thank you so very much indeedy.


I would say that both kinds of customers are important, as they both represent income. You seem to be under the impression that this is a black or white choice. That is a False Dilemma.

I believe it is possible to retain the "visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE" while providing some protection to "the other" customers who have reasonable expectations about the game they pay for.


Hold on, if you read the warning label on the box, and decide that it does not apply because you are special, and have this idea that your money means more than the others that have read, understood and accepted the conditions of the warning...how the hell does give you or any one else the right to tell everyone they are wrong.

It is like walking up to a group of people who are playing a game by the established rules and then stomping your feet wailing about screaming it is not fair and demand to change the rules in the middle of the game.

It is very simple, if you do not like the way it is played, find another game. Simple. You will be replaced by others that enjoy that type of game play and rules.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#72 - 2013-11-06 14:44:44 UTC
Beer is the greatest threat to ships in hisec. Sansha's ganked my Hawk just the other day because I was too drunk to align and warp in time. Granted I was poorly fit for the mission, but I stand by my initial statement... that and if I continue to comment on this right now I will get no kaboom in today before I'm too drunk to target.
That being said, hisec is pretty safe for most players to be honest. I've been back nearly a year and have been somewhat active during that time (you know, that fun time you have when you get back with your ex) and not one shot has been fired at me that I didn't sign up for in one way or another. It IS a cold harsh universe, but she puts out every time... and once you get to know her you love her for all that she is. I think the newer players are just daunted by the notion that they can actually be hurt by the fact that EVE doesn't really forgive foolishness, ignorance, or inexperience. It is and always has been something of a grinder, and if you make it without slamming your head into the keyboard repeatedly you generally end up loving the game. *shrug* I got guristas to blow up. /ramble off

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#73 - 2013-11-06 14:45:23 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Mythrandier wrote:
Which, would you say, is more important? Getting in new players or retaining the player base that has continued to grow year on year since release? Given how fickle most gamers are, I know where I would put my money if I were CEO of CCP.

Because the risk here is that if they try to make "EvE for the dumb" then the not-pants-on-head-******** existing player base will just leave. The player base that CCP has grown here is very niche and play this game simply because there is nothing out that comes close to the visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE.

I, for one, do not want another WoW in space clone thank you so very much indeedy.


I would say that both kinds of customers are important, as they both represent income. You seem to be under the impression that this is a black or white choice. That is a False Dilemma.

I believe it is possible to retain the "visceral, cold and harsh world that is EvE" while providing some protection to "the other" customers who have reasonable expectations about the game they pay for.


Hold on, if you read the warning label on the box, and decide that it does not apply because you are special, and have this idea that your money means more than the others that have read, understood and accepted the conditions of the warning...how the hell does give you or any one else the right to tell everyone they are wrong.

It is like walking up to a group of people who are playing a game by the established rules and then stomping your feet wailing about screaming it is not fair and demand to change the rules in the middle of the game.

It is very simple, if you do not like the way it is played, find another game. Simple. You will be replaced by others that enjoy that type of game play and rules.



This man right here, he gets it.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#74 - 2013-11-06 15:10:07 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Wars are great for business... and as everyone knows, the best way to line your pockets before retirement as an elected official is to start a war somewhere and own most of the contractors involved with any of the "support" and/or "security" issues.

EVE is no different.

Another variation: Start a war, wreck a country. Then just happen to be the former CEO of a mega-corp that gets the multi-billion dollar no-bid government contract to rebuild the country. Blink
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2013-11-06 15:21:37 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Pap Uhotih wrote:
(stuff)


You make some good points here, but you're going about it wrong. You don't pull out all 100 of your dudes to fight 20 (well, you can, but they'll hide).

Here's what you (should) be doing when a war crops up:

1. no flying solo anywhere, excepting obvious things (scouts jump first). but otherwise look disorganized.
2. make your losses inexpensive (but still fit effectively) -- e.g. if a lot of your guys are goon in frigs/dessies, fly those (pilots "good" in cruisers/bc can act as heavy muscle). You can lose a lot more well-fit frigates for the same price as a poorly fit battleship
3. taking notes on who the "good" pilots are -- see if they wanna start being FCs.

Now, "being prepared for war" isn't something that should be done in the 24 hours leading up to a war, but it should be done all the time. Buying or building 30 frigates is a lot easier on resources over the course of 3 months than in 24 hours ... knowing some "generic" fits that will go onto a ship, so you can counter it (e.g. a rifter will have autocannons and an AB ... so use artillery, a long point, and kite him)...


I think you are failing to recognise that there needs to be something for all the participants to be doing. At best you are suggesting there is some fun in only a third of the participants having something to do, by my math that leaves two thirds of the people with nothing to do - irrelevant of ships and skills. 'You can't fight, we're at war' is far too close to being a Dr Strangelove quote.

We do about go war correctly, that is the problem, we try to fight in an armed conflict but there is nothing to shoot at. Being able to declare war and then vanish completely from the Universe when it suites you doesn't make any sense. The war system is wrong, not the people wanting to wage war.
Anslo
Scope Works
#76 - 2013-11-06 15:22:09 UTC
War? No. I try to look for gud fites despite them being rare.
Griefing? Probably. I don't get the fun in tear collection from helpless targets.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Velicitia
XS Tech
#77 - 2013-11-06 15:25:35 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
2 man corps? I had one of those until I caught my alt trying to AWOX me... I booted him and he ragequit. Now I have no alt.
Now at least I don't have to listen to weak excuses about not being able to help with corp activities, nor do I need to worry about whether or not I'll have backup if it hits the fan.
Even so, in all seriousness, I maintain a personal corp for the purposes of helping to keep me accountable for my own actions and words, in game, and on the forums. I'm an adult, or so they tell me, and I'll face the consequences of what I bring upon myself. Personally, I'm of the opinion that NPC corps should be able to be wardecced, either that or individuals should be able to be decced. EVE isn't a game for the kiddies, there are plenty of those out there. As matters stand the NPC corps serve as havens for too many screaming monkeys who don't want to face the consequences of flinging poo. This is the thing that is broken. Rampant asshattery without consequences is simply cultural decay in action.



I'm kinda in the same boat -- but more because NPC Chat causes cancer (even outside of California!), so started this one up to free myself from that mess. Soon as I can find a proper crew to fly with, I'm out of my 1-man corp misery.


One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#78 - 2013-11-06 15:33:36 UTC
Pap Uhotih wrote:


I think you are failing to recognise that there needs to be something for all the participants to be doing. At best you are suggesting there is some fun in only a third of the participants having something to do, by my math that leaves two thirds of the people with nothing to do - irrelevant of ships and skills. 'You can't fight, we're at war' is far too close to being a Dr Strangelove quote.

We do about go war correctly, that is the problem, we try to fight in an armed conflict but there is nothing to shoot at. Being able to declare war and then vanish completely from the Universe when it suites you doesn't make any sense. The war system is wrong, not the people wanting to wage war.


The quote is "You can't fight in here! This is the war room!" Blink (hilarious movie)

Why is what I said limiting the "fun things" to only 1/3 of the people in a corp? I merely posted "some" things that you could do, not all the things... care to clarify?

There's nothing stopping your corp of 100 from having a mining op during a war (just bring defense and properly tanked skiffs).
There's nothing stopping your corp of 100 from continuing to mission (just fly in pairs/quads).
There's nothing stopping your manufacturers and traders from doing their thing (use escorts/scouts).
There's nothing stopping you from looking weak/disorganized (mining 2 jumps away from home with a "small" gang ... backup on standby).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-11-06 15:33:46 UTC
Orion Hellscream Chanlin wrote:
War is a necessary part of Eve - without wars and general pvp the market will become saturated and would threaten the financial infrastructure that is finely balanced.

But now I see some corps wardec 8 or 10 others at a time - they can afford to pay this as they will catch miners in T2 ore ships and the loot will pay for a prolonged campaign. However many of the wardecced corps will merely suffer the inconvenience of war, having to switch to alts, or temporarily leave their corp to continue playing their game normally.

That is when they are out-matched and unlikely to combat this wardec from a hostile corp.

I have heard of many people leaving Eve, rather than do any of the alternatives mentioned. After several wardecs they have grown tired of the losses, inconvenience, and the ease at which a hostile corp can wardec so many others with a relatively minimal initial outlay.

In truth, wardeccing should be expensive. It should be a final resort, not a casual affair done by pvp-corps to pass the time. There should be a limit to the number of corps they can 'dec at any time. I would put that at 3.

The price should escalate over weeks, doubling every week.

As we see in real life, war is not declared cheaply and is done rarely.

I am concerned that the wardeccers will drive away the others who wish to enjoy the rest of the elements Eve has to offer. While they serve a purpose they may harm the enjoyment of the majority of capsuleers.


We, and likely others, declare 8-10 wars exaclty because we know that for every 5 wars we declare, 3-4 will result in every single wartarget not log into the game for 1 week or dissolve corp.


If there were mechanics preventing war evasion, liek dissolving the corp, less wars would be needed....

Also too many1 person corps in this game. The 11% NPC corp tax should also apply to CORPS player owned, but be reduced by sometign like 1 % for every 3 members. THat would make peopel gather into proper CORPS. Where they can reacts, fights, learn and not simply dissolve the corp and go cry in forums.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#80 - 2013-11-06 15:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Mythrandier wrote:

You seem to be under the impression that this game can be the PvP sandbox its advertised as and Hello Kitty Island Adventure at the same time. That’s simply not possible, there is no false dilemma here.


PvP Sandbox or Hello Kitty Island IS the false dilemma. You can't just reword a false dilemma, proclaim it to not be what it obviously is, and win.

Quote:
I honestly don’t see how it is possible to introduce yet more protection (high sec safety has been buffed so many times already) without essentially breaking the cold harsh world that is EvE.


Just because you lack vision doesn't mean there's nothing there to see. High sec safety has, as you've pointed out, already been buffed many times without breaking the game. That's a fact. The theory that one more move in that direction would be the straw that breaks the camel's back is nothing but amateur-hour conjecture and alarmist bull****.

*Please fully censor profanity* - CCP Eterne

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/