These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Does WAR make players leave Eve?

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cyborg 497
State War Academy
Caldari State
#341 - 2013-11-08 00:56:23 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


This is the exact same argument that was used to bump 'decs from 2 million to 50 million in Inferno. Or, close enough anyway.Here's the devblog about it

Perhaps it is you who needs to adapt to things, rather than continually requesting CCP to make things "harder" for the people looking for wars?

I mean, there has already been a 25x cost increase to wars ... there's only so much that CCP can do to placate "the newbies" before they start alienating the vets (who are more or less guaranteed money, sometimes several times over because of alts).


edit --> furthermore, you're in a NPC corp and have no say on the matter. Please either post with your main or join a player corporation.



The past is done, the problem hasn't gone away. Wardecs are too cheap, that much is clear!

100m is a nice round number and very affordable to wardec another corp and sustain that war. It might however impact on the numerous 'joke' wardecs made by some. This will allow new corps to thrive and encourage players to leave an NPC corp.

And your last remark, that I should join a player corp, is that so you can wardec that one because you can't defend your argument? That's been a common reaction from the advocates of wardecs, to the detriment of any valid case they may have.
ravill rivyll
Doomheim
#342 - 2013-11-08 01:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ravill rivyll
Princess Bride wrote:
ravill rivyll wrote:
The pussies all around makes me quit. Not war.


Cool. Fear of vaginas. Freud would get a kick out of that. Can I have your main's stuff?


I will make a vagina from your face and then I ll reap you..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#343 - 2013-11-08 01:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
So, let's examine this.

"Wardecs make noobs quit!" No, they don't, noobs are in NPC corps and are immune to wardecs. Further, the option to rejoin NPC corps and become immune to wardecs again always exists. Knowledge of this is readily available.

"Wardecs are bad for small corps!" Good. Small carebear corps need to be stamped out like the cockroaches they are. It's the small carebear corps that are the real problem for player retention. I'll explain why.

Noobs start in highsec. Small carebear corps litter highsec like trash by the side of a highway. As a result, frequently the first people a noob will be presented with are the small carebear corps. And then the small carebear corps proceed to teach the noobs that PvP'ers are bad awful people, that you should never undock or do anything during a wardec, that the best use of your time is mining or grinding missions, the two more boring, mind numbingly bad aspects of this game. And telling you that's all you can do in the game, otherwise you will get snapped up by all the sociopaths who live in low/nullsec.

Spreading their sickness to the noobs. Telling them that they only real way to play this game is to focus with laser sharpness on the most boring activities possible. And that the people who reject this and, gasp, do PvP, are evil hideous monsters and you wouldn't want to be one of those, right?

And we really wonder why player retention sucks?

If anything, we should cheapen wardecs, so these parasites can be stamped out and stop corrupting the newbies.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#344 - 2013-11-08 02:19:39 UTC
Cyborg 497 wrote:


The past is done, the problem hasn't gone away. Wardecs are too cheap, that much is clear!

100m is a nice round number and very affordable to wardec another corp and sustain that war. It might however impact on the numerous 'joke' wardecs made by some. This will allow new corps to thrive and encourage players to leave an NPC corp.

And your last remark, that I should join a player corp, is that so you can wardec that one because you can't defend your argument? That's been a common reaction from the advocates of wardecs, to the detriment of any valid case they may have.


Perhaps the "cost" of the wardec isn't the problem then, and if CCP were to change the cost (again) to placate the people whining that "just a little higher, and the price will be good" ... they'll just come back in a year and a half with the same whining, except now "100m isn't enough, 200m will stop the decs".

As for my join a player corp comment -- nope, just being snarky because either:

1. You're a forum alt and should sack up and post with your main.
2. You've legitimately never been in a player corp, and thus have no experience with which to make reasoned decisions about the topic at hand, and are just regurgitating the carebear "ebil ganker" rhetoric.

If I wanted to shoot you bad enough, I could always just run a locator on you (but then again ... you're probably just a forum alt and not worth the time.


And just in case you're concerned I'm an ebil ganker

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Rekon X
Doomheim
#345 - 2013-11-08 02:38:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, let's examine this.

"Wardecs make noobs quit!" No, they don't, noobs are in NPC corps and are immune to wardecs. Further, the option to rejoin NPC corps and become immune to wardecs again always exists. Knowledge of this is readily available.

"Wardecs are bad for small corps!" Good. Small carebear corps need to be stamped out like the cockroaches they are. It's the small carebear corps that are the real problem for player retention. I'll explain why.

Noobs start in highsec. Small carebear corps litter highsec like trash by the side of a highway. As a result, frequently the first people a noob will be presented with are the small carebear corps. And then the small carebear corps proceed to teach the noobs that PvP'ers are bad awful people, that you should never undock or do anything during a wardec, that the best use of your time is mining or grinding missions, the two more boring, mind numbingly bad aspects of this game. And telling you that's all you can do in the game, otherwise you will get snapped up by all the sociopaths who live in low/nullsec.

Spreading their sickness to the noobs. Telling them that they only real way to play this game is to focus with laser sharpness on the most boring activities possible. And that the people who reject this and, gasp, do PvP, are evil hideous monsters and you wouldn't want to be one of those, right?

And we really wonder why player retention sucks?

If anything, we should cheapen wardecs, so these parasites can be stamped out and stop corrupting the newbies.


And everyone needs to play the game the way you want them to play.

This will probably help http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Velicitia
XS Tech
#346 - 2013-11-08 02:40:58 UTC
Rekon X wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, let's examine this.

"Wardecs make noobs quit!" No, they don't, noobs are in NPC corps and are immune to wardecs. Further, the option to rejoin NPC corps and become immune to wardecs again always exists. Knowledge of this is readily available.

"Wardecs are bad for small corps!" Good. Small carebear corps need to be stamped out like the cockroaches they are. It's the small carebear corps that are the real problem for player retention. I'll explain why.

Noobs start in highsec. Small carebear corps litter highsec like trash by the side of a highway. As a result, frequently the first people a noob will be presented with are the small carebear corps. And then the small carebear corps proceed to teach the noobs that PvP'ers are bad awful people, that you should never undock or do anything during a wardec, that the best use of your time is mining or grinding missions, the two more boring, mind numbingly bad aspects of this game. And telling you that's all you can do in the game, otherwise you will get snapped up by all the sociopaths who live in low/nullsec.

Spreading their sickness to the noobs. Telling them that they only real way to play this game is to focus with laser sharpness on the most boring activities possible. And that the people who reject this and, gasp, do PvP, are evil hideous monsters and you wouldn't want to be one of those, right?

And we really wonder why player retention sucks?

If anything, we should cheapen wardecs, so these parasites can be stamped out and stop corrupting the newbies.


And everyone needs to play the game the way you want them to play.

This will probably help http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder


No, but the people Kaaros is making a point of are the types who believe they should be allowed to play eve without ever having anything "bad" imposed on them (because it's not how they want to play).

That goes against the very core of EVE.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Rekon X
Doomheim
#347 - 2013-11-08 02:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekon X
Velicitia wrote:
Rekon x wrote:


And everyone needs to play the game the way you want them to play.

This will probably help http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder


No, but the people Kaaros is making a point of are the types who believe they should be allowed to play eve without ever having anything "bad" imposed on them (because it's not how they want to play).

That goes against the very core of EVE.


You forgot GTFO.

All you fuking hisecers, leave the game now.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#348 - 2013-11-08 03:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Rekon X wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Rekon x wrote:


And everyone needs to play the game the way you want them to play.

This will probably help http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder


No, but the people Kaaros is making a point of are the types who believe they should be allowed to play eve without ever having anything "bad" imposed on them (because it's not how they want to play).

That goes against the very core of EVE.


You forgot GTFO.

All you fuking hisecers, leave the game now.


Nope. I love how you over exaggerated anything I actually said in order to attack a point I didn't make, though. Oh, and I'm a sociopath, not a narcissist. Thin line, but I cling to the distinction.

What I said was, that it is my belief that player retention is harmed primarily by the extremely poor introduction people get into EVE. After the incredibly poor tutorials, they are mostly on their own with whatever questionable assistance the help channel can offer.

Thus, people who are bad examples, very poor representatives of the community of this game are the ones who end up with most of the actual raw recruits and genuine new players. Not only that, but even beyond their ****** attitudes, they are encouraged to make the two most boring parts of the game their primary focus.

So between being told that you are a poor excuse for a human being if you happen to like shooting other players, and being told that if you don't want all the rest of the rabbits to fingerpoint and shame you, that you have to do the dumbest parts of this game, it does not surprise me in the slightest that our retention is low.

For Christ's sake, the goddamn Goons are more useful in player retention than the majority of highsec.

...oh, yeah, and this:

To anyone who might be upset by "small carebear corps need to be stamped out", I'd ask you to think about something.

What are they here for? No, really. They pay their $15 a month, the same as I do, but that's about where the similarities end. They don't contribute much, they don't interact, they don't help anyone or do anything outside of their own little worlds. They have their heads in the sand, and vehemently spill out vitriol toward anyone who rattles their self built cage.

To the rest of us, they don't do anything, they're just... there. Like scenery, like NPCs. Does it genuinely surprise you then, that as far as we are concerned, the only use they have is setting their stuff on fire and laughing at how loud they howl about it?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#349 - 2013-11-08 04:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: NightCrawler 85
I will admit i did not read the whole thread, so im sure most of this has been mentioned, and argued several times during the last 19 pages.

If war decs were removed from the game..well suddenly there would be little to no consequences for people that do live in high sec (this includes me). I like knowing that if i make a complete fool out of my self and start trash talking someone just because i can, they do have ways they can "get back at me".
Knowing that my actions dosent just put me at risk, but the corp as a whole, is something that often have made me take a deep breath and count to 10 before i hit enter and say what was really on my mind.
In my opinion, this is exactly how it should be. You screw up and you **** off the wrong people they have ways to get back at you. that are all within the game mechanics and can actually provide entertaining ingame content for both sides (and of course some drama Lol ).

However, the war dec system is far from "perfect", but there is no way (that i can see) to make it "perfect" without ruining someones gameplay.

As an example... In my opinion a "good" war dec is a war dec that happened for a reason. The corp has a shiny high sec POS that is placed exactly where you want yours, the corporation is competing with you for the belts/targets/market/industry/whatever, or they just made fun of your mother in local. Even if the reason isent obvious, there is still a reason that goes beyond "ohh shiny!".

But as it stands a lot of war decs happen and you will see the same thing over and over.
The war targets will camp one of the trade hubs, maybe roam the pipe between two of these trade hubs, never leave the undock and of course have plenty of neutral logistics to back them up just in case they get bumped off station. Please note that there is nothing "wrong" with this, some people simply prefer to use these tactics (and they do work i guess), but for me it seems...pointless to just war dec 100 different corporations/alliances with no reason beyond "they will go to Jita at some point!".

While the current system might be frustrating to some, it does work.
And while i hope that at some point CCP will come up with something clever that will give people enough reason to war dec for something else then easy killmails, and give people a reason to use mercs on a more frequent basis so that they wont have to war dec whoever they see just to kill the boredom within their corp/alliance, i dont think it will ever eliminate the people who simply enjoy war deccing because all those shiny barges and haulers makes the KB look nice Lol

Now for the question in the OP.
Im sure some new players leave because they got war decced and finding your self camped in a station for a week+ just dosent appeal to them and they are convinced it will always be like that.
Just like im sure that some new players quit because they got suicide ganked, or lost a ship when they jumped into a WH, got scammed, lost a ship in a mission, because they are supposed to be pissed at CCP because the forums told them so, or simply because the game was not for them.

So yes, i can fully believe that some players quit because of a war dec, but i dont think the amount of players lost from this is much higher then the amounts lost for other reasons. No matter what you do, its simply not possible to make everyone happy and people will whine, be angry, threaten, and quit, while some just adapt and accept things for how they are and learn to use it to their advantage.

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#350 - 2013-11-08 04:13:09 UTC
Hisec and NPE in general are disasters. The current state of warfare in hisec is just a symptom of that, not a cause.

Hopefully CCP keeps plugging away at the problem; I'd even prioritize it above nullsec and lowsec issues. The pocos are a nice move in the right direction.

Small hisec carebear corps are a cancer on the game, and mechanics should be specifically designed around limiting their existence and influence.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Brad314
Perkone
Caldari State
#351 - 2013-11-08 04:16:00 UTC
May I ask a question? Why are we having a subjective argument with out having any facts? CCP actually does a exit survey. Personally I have to ask how do you know why people quit without access to that information?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#352 - 2013-11-08 04:37:57 UTC
Quote:
Why are we having a subjective argument with out having any facts?


You're in general discussion and you're asking this question?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rekon X
Doomheim
#353 - 2013-11-08 05:02:16 UTC
Eliminate sec status on systems altogether. Hisec wardecers would be the first to leave the game for the same reason they don't go to low/npc null to pvp. The rest of you can fight over who is camping the noob systems to kill all the noobs when they leave their rookie system.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#354 - 2013-11-08 05:09:28 UTC
Rekon X wrote:
Eliminate sec status on systems altogether. Hisec wardecers would be the first to leave the game for the same reason they don't go to low/npc null to pvp. The rest of you can fight over who is camping the noob systems to kill all the noobs when they leave their rookie system.


Curious why you assume that they don't PvP in lowsec and such? I do that, plenty of it.

Or is this part of the whole "you're attacking carebears because you're scared of real opponents" schtick?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rekon X
Doomheim
#355 - 2013-11-08 05:23:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Rekon X wrote:
Eliminate sec status on systems altogether. Hisec wardecers would be the first to leave the game for the same reason they don't go to low/npc null to pvp. The rest of you can fight over who is camping the noob systems to kill all the noobs when they leave their rookie system.


Curious why you assume that they don't PvP in lowsec and such? I do that, plenty of it.

Or is this part of the whole "you're attacking carebears because you're scared of real opponents" schtick?


Pick your targets in the safety of hisec.
Scout and scan them down with npc alts in the safety of hisec.
Setup a 6 domi spider tank group and gate camp in the safety of hisec.
On and On.

All you need to do is look at employment history.

Yea, they would be the first to leave.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#356 - 2013-11-08 05:24:13 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
This thread.

Also, know a guy IRL who quit after taking his first BS into a lowsec belt and the predictable thing happened. Guess we need CONCORD everywhere besides highsec now.


Been there, did that. Was hopping mad and made all sorts of nasty sounds. Came back later for another try, realized I had been foolish, did some reading, learned some stuff. Still learning stuff to this day. What I wonder is how many players who ragequit because they pissed on the electric fence come back later? I know I can't possibly be the only one.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#357 - 2013-11-08 05:45:10 UTC
Rekon X wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Rekon X wrote:
Eliminate sec status on systems altogether. Hisec wardecers would be the first to leave the game for the same reason they don't go to low/npc null to pvp. The rest of you can fight over who is camping the noob systems to kill all the noobs when they leave their rookie system.


Curious why you assume that they don't PvP in lowsec and such? I do that, plenty of it.

Or is this part of the whole "you're attacking carebears because you're scared of real opponents" schtick?


Pick your targets in the safety of hisec.
Scout and scan them down with npc alts in the safety of hisec.
Setup a 6 domi spider tank group and gate camp in the safety of hisec.
On and On.

All you need to do is look at employment history.

Yea, they would be the first to leave.


That has nothing to do with what I asked you? I asked you why the tired old "go to low and do real pvp" line?

Moreso, I was curious if you could postulate as to the existence and continued re-use of this old trope?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#358 - 2013-11-08 09:13:52 UTC
Cyborg 497 wrote:


Eve will increase even more in active players!! CCP will start making "real" money and challenge some of the higher populated MMOs without compromising their hard-core game structure.


Cool! Thats AMAZING!

I assume, of course, that you have evidence to back this statement up, or are you just spouting your opinion as fact again?

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#359 - 2013-11-08 10:43:17 UTC
Mythrandier wrote:
Cyborg 497 wrote:


Eve will increase even more in active players!! CCP will start making "real" money and challenge some of the higher populated MMOs without compromising their hard-core game structure.


Cool! Thats AMAZING!

I assume, of course, that you have evidence to back this statement up, or are you just spouting your opinion as fact again?


more likely the latter.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#360 - 2013-11-08 11:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Rekon X wrote:
Eliminate sec status on systems altogether. Hisec wardecers would be the first to leave the game for the same reason they don't go to low/npc null to pvp. The rest of you can fight over who is camping the noob systems to kill all the noobs when they leave their rookie system.


Um, because they wouldn't need to bother with a dec anymore?

I like where you're going with this -- BUFF NEW EDEN, REMOVE HISEC!

Edit --> Here's the thing though -- it's not the "hisec wardeccers" that would leave; but the "I should be allowed to do whatever I want without interference" crowd.

Would be nice if CCP made it that apparent EVE is working as intended.

Although, you'd still have "hisec" / "lowsec" / "nullsec" systems/areas ... but at the will of the players -- take Providence for example, the Sov holders are NRDS (Not Red, Don't Shoot). Granted they have a hilariously long "Reds" list ... but that's beside the point.

"Future" New Eden (no "static sec status" as now) would have loads of smaller alliances doing the same thing in their system/constellation. Some would be NRDS, others NBSI.

this would permanently and irrevocably crush all the 5 man "we just wanna do our thing, why're you shooting us" corps and... ShockedShockedShockedShocked I just realized CCP's new plan!

so "Rubicon" is "A limit that when passed or exceeded permits of no return and typically results in irrevocable commitment." , and CCP has hinted at the empires losing their control ... CCP Seagull, if this is your sekrit 5 year plan I will buy you the biggest bestest beer at fanfest (when I finally make itCry)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia