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Does WAR make players leave Eve?

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Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2013-11-07 21:09:22 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
The thing you're missing is not that the "bears" as you call them are not necessarily being close minded. A lot of the "older" eve players have come to EvE after having lived through the tragedies of other companies making games "easier" (e.g. Trammel, or the SWG "NPE"). While it is "close minded", it's because these people have seen what happens when you start making drastic changes to "keep the new players" (or make your game look enticing to them) -- they'll play it so long as it's the FOTM, but aren't necessarily gonna stick around.


Point taken.

Velicitia wrote:


More people like you and "carebear" might just go back to meaning what it used to...

also you're making the other carebears look bad, you'll be thrown out of their ranks in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1.

... welcome to being a "griefer". Your benefits packet is with the courier service and will be delivered within the next 3-5 business days. we hope you will enjoy your stay.


I'm not sure if that is good or bad, lol. My corp mates are gonna kill me when they start reading my posts, though it isn't like they run and hide during wartime. We did have one fall asleep at the barge, but he had his reasons Blink

You might have some idea why my CEO calls me the firecracker now...

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-11-07 21:11:08 UTC
I should give a shout out to Harry Forever though, he is getting something done.

My corp needs me Harry, but I am sending someone your way...

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#283 - 2013-11-07 21:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
J'Poll wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
What change to mechanics have we discussed in this thread that, conveniently enough, will benefit older players far more that new players? As an older player, this intrigues me.
Any and all changes to make wardecs more difficult and costly, for one.


This.

If you don't see that making wardecs more expensive will just follow Malcanis' Law...you should really start to think about your own intelligence.

If wars were more expensive, the old guys would also be more secure and thus you are also helping them by shielding them from wars.


And?

Why should it be a given that any change which helps new players must not in any way benefit old players as well, or it automatically becomes a bad idea? Only in Eve would a win/win scenario be seen as defective because it's win/win. Roll

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#284 - 2013-11-07 21:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Princess Bride wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
What change to mechanics have we discussed in this thread that, conveniently enough, will benefit older players far more that new players? As an older player, this intrigues me.
Any and all changes to make wardecs more difficult and costly, for one.


This.

If you don't see that making wardecs more expensive will just follow Malcanis' Law...you should really start to think about your own intelligence.

If wars were more expensive, the old guys would also be more secure and thus you are also helping them by shielding them from wars.


And?

Why should it be a given that any change which helps new players must not in any way benefit old players as well, or it automatically becomes a bad idea? Only in Eve would a win/win scenario be seen as defective because it's win/win. Roll


Nope, it's just because that will break the whole point of the game...PvP.

And now you wonder why I call you Peanut-head, you are:

1.) too ignorant to see the points why wardecs are just fine and in NO way related to New player retention.
2.) too stupid to understand it.

I really do hope it's point 1 for your sake.

Also, nice way of AGAIN avoiding any proof that it's working as intended by ignoring the official CCP statement...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#285 - 2013-11-07 21:22:46 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
The thing you're missing is not that the "bears" as you call them are not necessarily being close minded. A lot of the "older" eve players have come to EvE after having lived through the tragedies of other companies making games "easier" (e.g. Trammel, or the SWG "NPE"). While it is "close minded", it's because these people have seen what happens when you start making drastic changes to "keep the new players" (or make your game look enticing to them) -- they'll play it so long as it's the FOTM, but aren't necessarily gonna stick around.


Point taken.

Velicitia wrote:


More people like you and "carebear" might just go back to meaning what it used to...

also you're making the other carebears look bad, you'll be thrown out of their ranks in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1.

... welcome to being a "griefer". Your benefits packet is with the courier service and will be delivered within the next 3-5 business days. we hope you will enjoy your stay.


I'm not sure if that is good or bad, lol. My corp mates are gonna kill me when they start reading my posts, though it isn't like they run and hide during wartime. We did have one fall asleep at the barge, but he had his reasons Blink

You might have some idea why my CEO calls me the firecracker now...



How do you mine and fight at the same time?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#286 - 2013-11-07 21:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Princess Bride wrote:

Why should it be a given that any change which helps new players must not in any way benefit old players as well, or it automatically becomes a bad idea? Only in Eve would a win/win scenario be seen as defective because it's win/win. Roll


I trust you are familiar with "Malcanis' Law" ... if you are not, the basic gist is

"Any idea touted for the benefit of new players, will invariably be more beneficial to older/more established players"

In general then, making wars more expensive (good for newbies) will be even better for older players.

"Expensive" wars (note - they already have been made 25x more expensive for inter-corporation wars ... give or take) simply mean that the poorer aren't able to dec as much.

However, since "newer" corps blatantly advertise some form of wealth (POS, Orca support, barges, whatever), they will overall remain at the top of the pile for "juicy targets" ... since older players (a) have more disposable ISK AND (b) are generally quiet about assets, they will still come out ahead of the younger.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#287 - 2013-11-07 21:25:14 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
The thing you're missing is not that the "bears" as you call them are not necessarily being close minded. A lot of the "older" eve players have come to EvE after having lived through the tragedies of other companies making games "easier" (e.g. Trammel, or the SWG "NPE"). While it is "close minded", it's because these people have seen what happens when you start making drastic changes to "keep the new players" (or make your game look enticing to them) -- they'll play it so long as it's the FOTM, but aren't necessarily gonna stick around.


Point taken.

Velicitia wrote:


More people like you and "carebear" might just go back to meaning what it used to...

also you're making the other carebears look bad, you'll be thrown out of their ranks in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1.

... welcome to being a "griefer". Your benefits packet is with the courier service and will be delivered within the next 3-5 business days. we hope you will enjoy your stay.


I'm not sure if that is good or bad, lol. My corp mates are gonna kill me when they start reading my posts, though it isn't like they run and hide during wartime. We did have one fall asleep at the barge, but he had his reasons Blink

You might have some idea why my CEO calls me the firecracker now...



How do you mine and fight at the same time?


Generally you don't ... but if you check out Youtube, there are some vids of people doing just that.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-11-07 21:26:04 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
The thing you're missing is not that the "bears" as you call them are not necessarily being close minded. A lot of the "older" eve players have come to EvE after having lived through the tragedies of other companies making games "easier" (e.g. Trammel, or the SWG "NPE"). While it is "close minded", it's because these people have seen what happens when you start making drastic changes to "keep the new players" (or make your game look enticing to them) -- they'll play it so long as it's the FOTM, but aren't necessarily gonna stick around.


Point taken.

Velicitia wrote:


More people like you and "carebear" might just go back to meaning what it used to...

also you're making the other carebears look bad, you'll be thrown out of their ranks in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1.

... welcome to being a "griefer". Your benefits packet is with the courier service and will be delivered within the next 3-5 business days. we hope you will enjoy your stay.


I'm not sure if that is good or bad, lol. My corp mates are gonna kill me when they start reading my posts, though it isn't like they run and hide during wartime. We did have one fall asleep at the barge, but he had his reasons Blink

You might have some idea why my CEO calls me the firecracker now...



How do you mine and fight at the same time?


That's easy.

2 accounts

It's not that mining requires a whole bunch or attention.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#289 - 2013-11-07 21:29:17 UTC
I came here to say, War doesn't make players leave, apparently CCP Live Events do. :P
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#290 - 2013-11-07 21:31:28 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
I came here to say, War doesn't make players leave, apparently CCP Live Events do. :P


I've already seen the rage threads.

I feel sorry for ISD now, having to moderate all those threads...good luck.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Zheng'Yi Sao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2013-11-07 21:32:38 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
How do you mine and fight at the same time?


Well, we do have one way of doing that, but I'm not giving up my secrets.

Really it is about living with, and adapting to a constant state of war. You watch your enemy, you stay at the keyboard, you watch local, you actually use D-Scan. You keep warships where you mine. Stations can be used for hiding, or they can be used to park your fly swatters. When time allows, you go on roams looking to hit back. Most people don't expect us to be able or willing to fight. This is to our advantage.

Granted, we actually are industrialists. Half my skill points are in mining and PI. We aren't exactly fearsome. Yet. Time goes on, and skill points pile up. Winning PvP seems to be a lot like learning to fight in real life. You learn by losing. You get up off the ground and have another go. Video games hurt a lot less.

Eventually, things are going to swing our way.

So, the literal, and short answer to your question is you don't. You just do things differently.

"It's funny the things you people think are mandatory for us, as if we don't do what we do because it's a hilarious good time in a space video game." - Johnny Marzetti
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#292 - 2013-11-07 21:35:49 UTC
Do wars make people quit EVE? Absolutely. Most of those who quit, of course, are newbies who were never really cut out for EVE, and would never have subscribed for more than a few months anyway. Newbies who enjoy EVE tend to either enjoy wars or they move to places where wars don't affect them, like low,null, and hole-space.

Would doing away with wardecs or continuing to nerf them make people quit EVE? Absolutely. Most of these would be veteran players who have subscribed for years with several accounts, players who enjoy wars and seek them out.

Which group is of more value to CCP, I wonder?

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#293 - 2013-11-07 21:39:50 UTC
Zheng'Yi Sao wrote:
(continuing to make carebears in general look like petulant children)



I like the cut of your jib...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#294 - 2013-11-07 21:46:09 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

So if a new player after 2 days start a corp and gets wardecced by some PvP group, he can petition them. As the PvP has nothing to gain from the wardec other then grief kills of new player frigates.


Quote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3607446#post3607446

GM Spiral wrote:
"One of our wartargets include some newer players. Will we get in trouble for shooting them?"
Generally, no. Rookies contacting us with concerns in this regard will in most cases be directed to rejoin NPC corporations so that they may complete their tutorials and career missions in relative peace. Camping a station in a rookie system for rookie war targets may result in accidents involving other rookie pilots so we do not recommend doing so and may cause us to have a word with you.


Read the underlined...I'm quoting an official GM here. So there you go, you now have the official statement of CCP regarding wardecs vs new players.

Problem solved.
Thread closed.
You lose.


Not exactly an elegant solution, but it does recognize that wardecs on new players is a problem that CCP is trying to address. This just proves that the answer to the question posed by the OP "Does WAR make (new) players leave EVE", according to CCP is, "Yes. That's why we are making a rule about it."

Also, in order to even know he can petition, this requires that said new player dig up a locked thread in forums that most new players never even read. Even if by some miracle he finds it, he can petition, but "in most cases" CCP will just have him drop (disband) the corp he formed. In other words, the new player gets punished for petitioning, as the only negative impact is on the new player. Shocked

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2013-11-07 21:50:10 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

So if a new player after 2 days start a corp and gets wardecced by some PvP group, he can petition them. As the PvP has nothing to gain from the wardec other then grief kills of new player frigates.


Quote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3607446#post3607446

GM Spiral wrote:
"One of our wartargets include some newer players. Will we get in trouble for shooting them?"
Generally, no. Rookies contacting us with concerns in this regard will in most cases be directed to rejoin NPC corporations so that they may complete their tutorials and career missions in relative peace. Camping a station in a rookie system for rookie war targets may result in accidents involving other rookie pilots so we do not recommend doing so and may cause us to have a word with you.


Read the underlined...I'm quoting an official GM here. So there you go, you now have the official statement of CCP regarding wardecs vs new players.

Problem solved.
Thread closed.
You lose.


Not exactly an elegant solution, but it does recognize that wardecs on new players is a problem that CCP is trying to address. This just proves that the answer to the question posed by the OP "Does WAR make (new) players leave EVE", according to CCP is, "Yes. That's why we are making a rule about it."

Also, in order to even know he can petition, this requires that said new player dig up a locked thread in forums that most new players never even read. Even if by some miracle he finds it, he can petition, but "in most cases" CCP will just have him drop (disband) the corp he formed. In other words, the new player gets punished for petitioning, as the only negative impact is on the new player. Shocked



It does not state that there is a problem, all it points out, is if the little dude is having difficulties dealing with it, maybe he should strap the training wheels back on via NPC corp until the little dude can grasp the game a bit better.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#296 - 2013-11-07 21:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Princess Bride wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

So if a new player after 2 days start a corp and gets wardecced by some PvP group, he can petition them. As the PvP has nothing to gain from the wardec other then grief kills of new player frigates.


Quote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3607446#post3607446

GM Spiral wrote:
"One of our wartargets include some newer players. Will we get in trouble for shooting them?"
Generally, no. Rookies contacting us with concerns in this regard will in most cases be directed to rejoin NPC corporations so that they may complete their tutorials and career missions in relative peace. Camping a station in a rookie system for rookie war targets may result in accidents involving other rookie pilots so we do not recommend doing so and may cause us to have a word with you.


Read the underlined...I'm quoting an official GM here. So there you go, you now have the official statement of CCP regarding wardecs vs new players.

Problem solved.
Thread closed.
You lose.


Not exactly an elegant solution, but it does recognize that wardecs on new players is a problem that CCP is trying to address. This just proves that the answer to the question posed by the OP "Does WAR make (new) players leave EVE", according to CCP is, "Yes. That's why we are making a rule about it."

Also, in order to even know he can petition, this requires that said new player dig up a locked thread in forums that most new players never even read. Even if by some miracle he finds it, he can petition, but "in most cases" CCP will just have him drop (disband) the corp he formed. In other words, the new player gets punished for petitioning, as the only negative impact is on the new player. Shocked



Where does it say that there is a problem with wardecs and new players.

It says...and I will make it clear to you.

If new players doesn't like to be in a war, they should rejoin the NPC corp.

GM Spiral never said there was a problem or what so ever.
The options are already there for new players.

And no, it dosn't proof that new players leave because of a war, where is that proof in that...

It proofs that CCP is getting petitions from new players who are affected by a war because they joined a corp, not that they leave EVE or what so ever. Get your facts straight, or learn to actually READ and don't make up things.

No..This is ALSO clearly linked (the rookie system / New player protection rules) in the rookie help chat...which ANY account joins when it's first created.

So again..

NONE of arguments hold...


Come on....give me 1 single factual proof that new players are leaving EVE because of the current war mechanic.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Velicitia
XS Tech
#297 - 2013-11-07 21:52:23 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
J'Poll wrote:

So if a new player after 2 days start a corp and gets wardecced by some PvP group, he can petition them. As the PvP has nothing to gain from the wardec other then grief kills of new player frigates.


Quote:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3607446#post3607446

GM Spiral wrote:
"One of our wartargets include some newer players. Will we get in trouble for shooting them?"
Generally, no. Rookies contacting us with concerns in this regard will in most cases be directed to rejoin NPC corporations so that they may complete their tutorials and career missions in relative peace. Camping a station in a rookie system for rookie war targets may result in accidents involving other rookie pilots so we do not recommend doing so and may cause us to have a word with you.


Read the underlined...I'm quoting an official GM here. So there you go, you now have the official statement of CCP regarding wardecs vs new players.

Problem solved.
Thread closed.
You lose.


Not exactly an elegant solution, but it does recognize that wardecs on new players is a problem that CCP is trying to address. This just proves that the answer to the question posed by the OP "Does WAR make (new) players leave EVE", according to CCP is, "Yes. That's why we are making a rule about it."

Also, in order to even know he can petition, this requires that said new player dig up a locked thread in forums that most new players never even read. Even if by some miracle he finds it, he can petition, but "in most cases" CCP will just have him drop (disband) the corp he formed. In other words, the new player gets punished for petitioning, as the only negative impact is on the new player. Shocked



no, CCP is just telling new players that they should leave corp if they don't want to be at war. They're saying NOTHING about "srsly older dudes, don't dec them".

they go on to say "don't chase them into the rookie systems so you don't accidentally someone else" which is fair warning. Rookie systems have been in EVE for several years now.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#298 - 2013-11-07 21:55:19 UTC
I love how 3 individual people all read that rule in exactly the same way and you are the only person in EVE who reads it as: Yes there is a problem with the war mechanic.

Does this means we all are wrong, or you are wrong?

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#299 - 2013-11-07 21:57:03 UTC
Baaldor wrote:

It does not state that there is a problem, all it points out, is if the little dude is having difficulties dealing with it, maybe he should strap the training wheels back on via NPC corp until the little dude can grasp the game a bit better.


So in your mind, they passed a bunch of rules protecting newbies because...there was no problem.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#300 - 2013-11-07 21:57:28 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
I love how 3 individual people all read that rule in exactly the same way and you are the only person in EVE who reads it as: Yes there is a problem with the war mechanic.

Does this means we all are wrong, or you are wrong?

You are sociopaths and bad people

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?